Bigus Termitius
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He's sure it was funny.
Dropped into high tension
- Thread starter ciscoguy01
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He's sure it was funny.
ciscoguy01
Addicted to ArboristSite
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
Gettin in kinda late on this one...
I personally think the wife has some spunk which I like...
On the other hand... the scene reminds me years ago of when I had Asplund come in to clear a removal from some wires and the climber said... "I've only been climbing 6 months and I think I'm pretty good", and I thought silently... "dude... you are dangerous!"... turns out when the subject came up with another guy on the crew... the groundie said he already had his story worked out for when the climber kills himself...
As far as the tough love goes... I think it mostly alienates people and it is hard to learn when you are in a defensive mode... So I don;t recommend it...
I don't know much about falling with wedges or working around primaries... And I do know about using hinge wood to control the fall... Tough to tell from the video, but it looks like both sides of the hinge were cut through leaving only a little piece of holding wood in the center of what should have been the hinge... I would venture a guess that there was a dutchman bypass on the notch and the hinge siezed when the kerf closed... remember she said something about it moving a little bit.... so it moved a little bit and then siezed (classic evidence of a bypass dutchman) and when it couldn't go to the face, and there was no real hinge to fight the side lean, it just let go.....
I've learned a lot from my mistakes over the years... So there is room for us all to learn something on this one... Now if we spend our time whippin' this guy and calling him names, we might lose an opportunity to learn something from him.
I only heard one other post mention the notch and no one seemed to be concerned as to why the hinge failed....
So Cisco can you give us some more information about how the notch and backcut were made... Any chance there was a bypass cut on the notch? Was the saw cutting straight?.. How did you wedge it?... How did the stump and butt look?..Did you study them?.. what kind of fibers were holding?...Did it fall right with the lean or not?... With a little more information we can learn something here and maybe that will help another faller sometime down the road avoid a similar mistake and maybe that could save a life or a who knows what...
So please can we work together and learn something here?....
I personally think the wife has some spunk which I like...
On the other hand... the scene reminds me years ago of when I had Asplund come in to clear a removal from some wires and the climber said... "I've only been climbing 6 months and I think I'm pretty good", and I thought silently... "dude... you are dangerous!"... turns out when the subject came up with another guy on the crew... the groundie said he already had his story worked out for when the climber kills himself...
As far as the tough love goes... I think it mostly alienates people and it is hard to learn when you are in a defensive mode... So I don;t recommend it...
I don't know much about falling with wedges or working around primaries... And I do know about using hinge wood to control the fall... Tough to tell from the video, but it looks like both sides of the hinge were cut through leaving only a little piece of holding wood in the center of what should have been the hinge... I would venture a guess that there was a dutchman bypass on the notch and the hinge siezed when the kerf closed... remember she said something about it moving a little bit.... so it moved a little bit and then siezed (classic evidence of a bypass dutchman) and when it couldn't go to the face, and there was no real hinge to fight the side lean, it just let go.....
I've learned a lot from my mistakes over the years... So there is room for us all to learn something on this one... Now if we spend our time whippin' this guy and calling him names, we might lose an opportunity to learn something from him.
I only heard one other post mention the notch and no one seemed to be concerned as to why the hinge failed....
So Cisco can you give us some more information about how the notch and backcut were made... Any chance there was a bypass cut on the notch? Was the saw cutting straight?.. How did you wedge it?... How did the stump and butt look?..Did you study them?.. what kind of fibers were holding?...Did it fall right with the lean or not?... With a little more information we can learn something here and maybe that will help another faller sometime down the road avoid a similar mistake and maybe that could save a life or a who knows what...
So please can we work together and learn something here?....
ciscoguy01
Addicted to ArboristSite
Cool
Welllll, if you must know this was the first tree I've tried to wedge the opposite direction, lmao... I've watched it a few times, but am by NO means knowledgeable on this subject. Top of the tree had broken off from a storm recently, I actually didn't really think the tree would hit the line even if it fell that way. What did hit the line was a small limb sticking out, STILL NOT GOOD. :jawdrop: I had made a large notch in the northwestern side of the tree, all the weight was hanging on the southeast side. After notching NE side, I started the backcut. I made the mistake of not backcutting above the notch so it was level to it. (Another bad mistake)
I also cut part of the eastern side of the tree to make it swing more westerly when falling... I cut through roughly 80% of the log, both sides included... I started wedging it, using 2 different wedges. I beat them both senseless, thinking it would lean over, instead, it broke off and well, you saw what happened.. 
opcorn: It wasnt' good... Wasn't really that bad, i.e. nothing bad happened all in all... Hence why I'm laughing still. I loveeeeee learning about new stuff in the woods. Unfortunately, I'm a network engineer and normally any tree cutting I do is WAY in the woods w/out a care in the world except where to run when the tree falls lmao... Anyhoot, yea brother Murph, input for this would be cool and that's what went down... Thanks eh?? Take care guy.
Welllll, if you must know this was the first tree I've tried to wedge the opposite direction, lmao... I've watched it a few times, but am by NO means knowledgeable on this subject. Top of the tree had broken off from a storm recently, I actually didn't really think the tree would hit the line even if it fell that way. What did hit the line was a small limb sticking out, STILL NOT GOOD. :jawdrop: I had made a large notch in the northwestern side of the tree, all the weight was hanging on the southeast side. After notching NE side, I started the backcut. I made the mistake of not backcutting above the notch so it was level to it. (Another bad mistake)
I also cut part of the eastern side of the tree to make it swing more westerly when falling... I cut through roughly 80% of the log, both sides included... I started wedging it, using 2 different wedges. I beat them both senseless, thinking it would lean over, instead, it broke off and well, you saw what happened.. opcorn: It wasnt' good... Wasn't really that bad, i.e. nothing bad happened all in all... Hence why I'm laughing still. I loveeeeee learning about new stuff in the woods. Unfortunately, I'm a network engineer and normally any tree cutting I do is WAY in the woods w/out a care in the world except where to run when the tree falls lmao... Anyhoot, yea brother Murph, input for this would be cool and that's what went down... Thanks eh?? Take care guy.
ciscoguy01
Addicted to ArboristSite
l2edneck
Small Job Specialist
This post reminds me of when i posted about killing myself aswell.20 years in the buisness and all i got flamed over and over about my grammar and avatar.Still same spellin and still same avatar.Just learn from it and dont repeat it.As far as yer wife bein there,fact is she prolly got more kahonas than most guys so i say all good besides mistake.
You been here awhile and you know most of these guys are perfect and never make a mistake.........HA
yea we were,all smart and never did anything for the first time.....
glad yer safe and life is short so be sure to enjoy !!!!!!!opcorn:
(insert flaming l2edneck here)
You been here awhile and you know most of these guys are perfect and never make a mistake.........HA
yea we were,all smart and never did anything for the first time.....
glad yer safe and life is short so be sure to enjoy !!!!!!!
opcorn: (insert flaming l2edneck here)
sawsong
ArboristSite Member
tbh im a beginner, not a beginner compared to ekka, treemachine, treeco, lxt, bostonbull etc, a fresh faced beginner. I'm 20, i work as a groundie for a local tree surgeon when im not at uni, and i know i have the world to learn,
tbh dude, im not gonna give you grief on what the tree did. you messed up, you know it, the hinge wood was seemingly not enough or even not intact, but that's by the by, you know what you did wrong and its been covered. I'll hold my hands up and say it happened to me on one tree when i was first starting out on my course. what does bother me about things like this is the aparent (from my perspective) disregard for safety, your own and other people's. always be thinking what the worst thing that could happen is, thats how i was taught.
in my mere 2 years of doing what i do on a part time job basis, the first thing i did was buy ppe. good big solid boots, hiflex trousers, helmet, gloves, the works. it cost me more than i care to think about, but i make damn sure i wear it every single time i operate my saw. i know a lot of people let it slide when theyve been doing it a long long time but i dont see it as an option to me in the slightest.
now ive done some nptc training courses in the felling of trees. i havent moved onto climbing yet, but all in good time and you didnt climb it anyway so irrelevant.
but regardless of the techniques i had to show my proficiency in, beit a straight tree, one leaning in direction of fell or one leaning against direction of fell, there was one very important thing we had drilled into us that you might find useful in the future.
2 TREE LENGTH RULE!
2 tree lengths away from powerlines, people, roads, etc etc etc.
now, im no fool. i know there is no way that a tree surgeon/arborist is always going to be 2 tree lengths from buildings, power lines etc, or most would be out of a job,
but when i cut down trees myself,
I WOULD NEVER let anyone within two tree lengths or twice the longest product of anything i was cutting. It just isnt worth it, and you claim your significant other was what, 4 feet outside the total length of this tree? even if i did believe that it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth
perhaps a naiive view, but it's thusfar kept me and those ive worked with safe. i just dont understand people putting productivity before safety even though it happens all to often these days
however my good deed the other day after just picking my girlfriend up from her house was to stop and politely ask down a homeowner from a tree with ladder against a branch, brandishing shiny chainsaw in everyday clothes. to begin with he was giving me some stick but i told him i couldnt let him in good conscience continue so i would have little choice but to call the police.
thankfully, after much complaining he came down and set down the saw, (not that the police would enforce ppe law i bet) but it had the desired effect. I showed him my qualifications and explained how he should have ppe but even so should not be up there. as always it was a money saving exercise, but he seemed to finally understand the danger he had put himself in and said he would try a pole saw from the diy store. whether he went back up with the chainsaw or not i don't know, but hopefully i did the right thing there.
jim
tbh dude, im not gonna give you grief on what the tree did. you messed up, you know it, the hinge wood was seemingly not enough or even not intact, but that's by the by, you know what you did wrong and its been covered. I'll hold my hands up and say it happened to me on one tree when i was first starting out on my course. what does bother me about things like this is the aparent (from my perspective) disregard for safety, your own and other people's. always be thinking what the worst thing that could happen is, thats how i was taught.
in my mere 2 years of doing what i do on a part time job basis, the first thing i did was buy ppe. good big solid boots, hiflex trousers, helmet, gloves, the works. it cost me more than i care to think about, but i make damn sure i wear it every single time i operate my saw. i know a lot of people let it slide when theyve been doing it a long long time but i dont see it as an option to me in the slightest.
now ive done some nptc training courses in the felling of trees. i havent moved onto climbing yet, but all in good time and you didnt climb it anyway so irrelevant.
but regardless of the techniques i had to show my proficiency in, beit a straight tree, one leaning in direction of fell or one leaning against direction of fell, there was one very important thing we had drilled into us that you might find useful in the future.
2 TREE LENGTH RULE!
2 tree lengths away from powerlines, people, roads, etc etc etc.
now, im no fool. i know there is no way that a tree surgeon/arborist is always going to be 2 tree lengths from buildings, power lines etc, or most would be out of a job,
but when i cut down trees myself,
I WOULD NEVER let anyone within two tree lengths or twice the longest product of anything i was cutting. It just isnt worth it, and you claim your significant other was what, 4 feet outside the total length of this tree? even if i did believe that it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth
perhaps a naiive view, but it's thusfar kept me and those ive worked with safe. i just dont understand people putting productivity before safety even though it happens all to often these days
however my good deed the other day after just picking my girlfriend up from her house was to stop and politely ask down a homeowner from a tree with ladder against a branch, brandishing shiny chainsaw in everyday clothes. to begin with he was giving me some stick but i told him i couldnt let him in good conscience continue so i would have little choice but to call the police.
thankfully, after much complaining he came down and set down the saw, (not that the police would enforce ppe law i bet) but it had the desired effect. I showed him my qualifications and explained how he should have ppe but even so should not be up there. as always it was a money saving exercise, but he seemed to finally understand the danger he had put himself in and said he would try a pole saw from the diy store. whether he went back up with the chainsaw or not i don't know, but hopefully i did the right thing there.
jim
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Adkpk
Addicted to ArboristSite
Been there done that. Slight down hill lean on a tall 18" dbh spruce. Gf taping the incident. (can't put it on here because I don't know how to load video, not much to see anyway) Knotched it and as I was doing the back cut it started to go the other way. I threw a rope on it and tried to pull it over with the winch. As it came up it suddenly fell over to the left. I turned to the gf and yelled, run. Well, she ran up the hill right under the tree. Why I have no idea. But I felt really dumb and had some deep pain in the belly. Didn't experience laughter. But bad things do go wrong when cutting trees. It managed to crash right on top of the cabin I was building and knocked it flat to the ground. (No nails in it yet so I had a pile of logs to clean up). Amazingly nothing inside got crushed. Job boxes, wheelbarrow, chainsaws all untouched. I was lucky.
Cisco, is seeing his incident as a lucky event also. Laughing as a way to share his story with us without admitting his stupidity, (I mean msitake). This is ok. We who know cisco know he not one of these dumbies we see on you tube showing off their stupidity. He made a bad cut and wants to gather information about his mistake by posting it. Muph got the ball rolling with that and I learned something finally form this thread. Lets try to keep it on what should have been done not how not how cisco should behave after cutting a tree down. (where's that smiley stepping down from his soapbox
)
Cisco, is seeing his incident as a lucky event also. Laughing as a way to share his story with us without admitting his stupidity, (I mean msitake). This is ok. We who know cisco know he not one of these dumbies we see on you tube showing off their stupidity. He made a bad cut and wants to gather information about his mistake by posting it. Muph got the ball rolling with that and I learned something finally form this thread. Lets try to keep it on what should have been done not how not how cisco should behave after cutting a tree down. (where's that smiley stepping down from his soapbox
)
ciscoguy01
Addicted to ArboristSite
Easy now...
Lets not get all worked up about this again... lol
opcorn:
Lets not get all worked up about this again... lol
opcorn:juststumps
ArboristSite Guru
I'm also an electrician. Did you know that your standard 110/120 house voltage is about 1000x's more dangerous than the 480 that's passing overhead. If you knew ANYthing about electricity you'd know that. Even a 208/220/240 circuit is wayyyy less dangerous than the 110 in your house outlets. Tell you what, next time you get a chance, make sure your 200amp standard service is grounded, and stick your hand on the poles of your house service. If your dry and have insulated shoes you WILL NOT get shocked. The chances of getting fried from a line are almost NIL from 30' away. So stop being dramatic and go cut some wood dude... It is funny. Nothing anyone on here is going to tell me will make me think it isn't funny. My wife and I are still laughing about it. Course we base jump, skydive and alot of other stupid stuff, so this really doesn't stack up as SCARY on the list of things... Go climb a rock...
i have a lot of years as a substation electrician.....138,000 volts and down... i've seen a lot of stuff blow up... never knew that porcelain could melt,, cast iron,, or that copper could vaporize !!!!!!!
he must be less of an electrician, than he is a tree cutter !!!!!
110 house cirduts have a thing called a "circut breaker " 15, 20, 30 etc amps... they trip out ,,, thats it... you get into supply lines,, they trip out also 1000, 2000, 3000, etc amps,,, they trip out also,, but they try to reclose 1,2,3, times before they lock out......that is if they trip....
KNOWLEDGE = POWER
THINKING YOU HAVE KNOWLEDGE= IDIOT
juststumps
ArboristSite Guru
REALLY,,, SILLY ME !!!!!
WOW!!! IS THAT LIKE A 9 OUT OF 10 DENTISTS RECOMEND CREST ????
WHERE DOES THIS CRAP COME FROM ???????
all of it can " KILL YOU "
stop believing these old wifes tales,, it can KILL YOU !!!!! the higher the voltage can KILL YOU QUICKER !!!!!
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
Alright, after reviewing the the video one more time, I can almost guarentee there was a bypass cut on the face... At the very beginning of the shot, the tree moves then stops and they talk about it....
I saw the open face... one of the advantages of the open face is that you get a good look at the notch, and you can make sure it is a nice clean cut with no bypass...
I'd really like to see a picure of the stump and the but of the log to tell for sure.... can you get post one or both of them...
Also (and this may open up another can of worms, which we've had at in the past)... cutting the backcut level with the notch is the best way to make most precision falling cuts... Now a very little bit higher is just as good in most cases, though I theink 2" is far more than needed.. And even a very little bit lower can cause problems....
Get us the pics id you can...If you can;t....How wide was the hinge? and what was the diameter at the cut and how long was the bar? And tell us about how you placed the wedges... that's not my thing, and there are some highly skilled loggers that can comment most intelligently about the use of wedges... From what I understan wedging against the lean is very doable... shouldn;t have been a problem if done properly....
Help us out here bro... some of us are actually interested in learning something here, and it could make a big difference.. maybe even savve a life down the road... for the rest hat have their egos invested in being right and making you wrong... you just gotta put up with them, thicken up your skin... They don't understand how their words can kill the beauty of this site... We are all here to learn and have a good time... Let'sdo it!
OK editing this post after going back and looking one more time...
That bar looks quite a bit shorter than the hinge.. It is easy to cut a bypass on the notch and not realize it with a short bar. When the roof cut bypasses the floor and the sawdust sits in the bypass it looks like a clean notch... I was in a hurry recently and bypassed the notch cut..the saw wasn;t cutting straight, the backcut was high into some twisting grain, and I didn;t triple check the notch... when I ran my hand down the apex of the notch a little strip of wood was sticking up out of the floor, about as high as the bar and it felt like a clean notch... Big oak fell 45 degrees off the face.... Got lucky.. no damage... Many lessons learned... Not the least of which is take the time to sharpen a saw before falling trees... If the saw was cutting right that would not have happened.. Take your time, etc... I was complacent... that is only the second time I can remember losing a fall like that in 26 years, though for many years I didn't understand hinge mechanics and got away with it...
I took over 150 pics of that stump and studied it until I knew exactly what went wrong....
I saw the open face... one of the advantages of the open face is that you get a good look at the notch, and you can make sure it is a nice clean cut with no bypass...
I'd really like to see a picure of the stump and the but of the log to tell for sure.... can you get post one or both of them...
Also (and this may open up another can of worms, which we've had at in the past)... cutting the backcut level with the notch is the best way to make most precision falling cuts... Now a very little bit higher is just as good in most cases, though I theink 2" is far more than needed.. And even a very little bit lower can cause problems....
Get us the pics id you can...If you can;t....How wide was the hinge? and what was the diameter at the cut and how long was the bar? And tell us about how you placed the wedges... that's not my thing, and there are some highly skilled loggers that can comment most intelligently about the use of wedges... From what I understan wedging against the lean is very doable... shouldn;t have been a problem if done properly....
Help us out here bro... some of us are actually interested in learning something here, and it could make a big difference.. maybe even savve a life down the road... for the rest hat have their egos invested in being right and making you wrong... you just gotta put up with them, thicken up your skin... They don't understand how their words can kill the beauty of this site... We are all here to learn and have a good time... Let'sdo it!
OK editing this post after going back and looking one more time...
That bar looks quite a bit shorter than the hinge.. It is easy to cut a bypass on the notch and not realize it with a short bar. When the roof cut bypasses the floor and the sawdust sits in the bypass it looks like a clean notch... I was in a hurry recently and bypassed the notch cut..the saw wasn;t cutting straight, the backcut was high into some twisting grain, and I didn;t triple check the notch... when I ran my hand down the apex of the notch a little strip of wood was sticking up out of the floor, about as high as the bar and it felt like a clean notch... Big oak fell 45 degrees off the face.... Got lucky.. no damage... Many lessons learned... Not the least of which is take the time to sharpen a saw before falling trees... If the saw was cutting right that would not have happened.. Take your time, etc... I was complacent... that is only the second time I can remember losing a fall like that in 26 years, though for many years I didn't understand hinge mechanics and got away with it...
I took over 150 pics of that stump and studied it until I knew exactly what went wrong....
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treesquirrel
ArboristSite Guru
I'll have to add to Murphy on the importance of the hinge mechanics.
One of the easiest mistakes to make is to improperly design the hinge then stand there scratching your head wondering why the tree went where it did.
I learned my lesson and got lucky once missing an out building by about 10 feet when if the hinge I cut had been correct I would have missed by well over 50 feet.
When working aloft the importance of hinge mechanics dropping tops means life or death cause if it fails and comes back or barberchairs on top of the climber he/she is in big trouble.
I almost always tie in a pull line for tops to tip the scale in my favor but there are always the easy looking tops which get hinged and felled out.
Also, never underestimate the power of a slight breeze.
One of the easiest mistakes to make is to improperly design the hinge then stand there scratching your head wondering why the tree went where it did.
I learned my lesson and got lucky once missing an out building by about 10 feet when if the hinge I cut had been correct I would have missed by well over 50 feet.
When working aloft the importance of hinge mechanics dropping tops means life or death cause if it fails and comes back or barberchairs on top of the climber he/she is in big trouble.
I almost always tie in a pull line for tops to tip the scale in my favor but there are always the easy looking tops which get hinged and felled out.
Also, never underestimate the power of a slight breeze.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
If I remember correctly, AC causes muscle contraction, where DC causes retraction. Something about the occilation of the AC current.
Like he said it can all kill, leave it alone.
Yes I know electricians who have no problem working with hot 120 vAC, but even they admit that they know people who cannot.
It also has to do with how you contact. Having it fall on you could be very bad.
sawinredneck
Addicted to ArboristSite
UMMMMMMMM.................. If you had read my post, the one you qouted, I didn't recomend playing with ANY live electricity. I just stated that you MIGHT have a better chance with the higher voltages. I have had 120 throw me across a room, I have had 240 knock the wind out of me, and I have personaly seen the burn marks left when my old boss got into 480!!
I also believe that I stated I wouldn't want to play with high tension line as well.
Chill a bit, I wasn't encouraging any of this behavior!!
Husky137
Addicted to ArboristSite
I don't touch lectricity at all. It skeers me.:jawdrop:
monkeywood
ArboristSite Lurker
Hinge wood
As the new guy here, did he tear the hinge with the wedges because of excessive lean?
As the new guy here, did he tear the hinge with the wedges because of excessive lean?
Husky137
Addicted to ArboristSite
As the new guy here, did he tear the hinge with the wedges because of excessive lean?
From what I could see in the video, his insertion of wedges was a day late and a dollar short after the tree had set down and eaten his saw. Looked like a pretty straightforward take down against the lean with the proper use of wedges. Unfortunately the vid only shows things after they went all pear shaped and he was trying to pry over a mistake.
It strikes me odd that he is positive that the tree wouldn't have hit cameragirl but he was pretty sure it wasn't going to hit the wires either.
tree md
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm sure this has been said but rule number 1 is to assess risk and damage potential. I always climb the tree and put a rope in it if it's not leaning in the direction I want it to fall. You could have put a bull rope in it, run it around another tree, tied a butterfly knot and you and your wife could have got a 10 man pull on it. So glad you and your wife lived to tell about it. The guy who taught me how to work off a crane got fried in an instant and so did his parter. They had been doing tree work for 40 years together and died together. Wasn't funny a bit.
When something from the ground makes contact with that line it has to come out somewhere. Thank God it wasn't you or your wife.
When something from the ground makes contact with that line it has to come out somewhere. Thank God it wasn't you or your wife.
