Echo CS-400 Woes

[pfarrelli]

hi All,

New guy to this forum and also to using chainsaws (for the most part).

I recently bought a CS-400. It ran GREAT out of the box (for what I know). I really love the saw. I was cutting some pretty decent sized tree trunks through the summer 18" in diameter at most. After a a while, after say 12 tanks of fuel and 6 or so sharpens it began to cut towards the right. I MAY have bent the bar when one large log jammed up the chain and bar pretty good but it was hard to tell. However, with my hand sharpening (which seemed fairly easy to do), I was beginning to wonder if I sharpening the chain incorrectly causing the curved cut. Regardless, since I knew manager at HDpoh, I was able to swap it out for another new one.

First odd thing about the new one. The bar is silver and the other bar was black. What's up with that??

Secondly, even though it ran great out of the box, after say 6 or so tanks of fuel, and then letting it sit for a month (got busy on other stuff), I have now found that the saw runs TERRIBLE and I really think it is running lean. It really bogs down when I squeeze the throttle after starting. If I ease into it, it will rev decent but ti is very inconsistent. When it settles in and I can rev it on and off ever so gently, when I begin to cut, it bogs down pretty good. While cutting I can ease in to get it up to speed but it just doesn't have the same out of box attitude. Even when I got it up to speed, it seems to just cut TERRIBLE, and as of late, it is hardly cutting at ALL even while revving. I was doing a horizontal cut on a 10 inch oak the other day and the saw half way through the cut just sat there and spun. This is after a sharpen including cutting down rakers a bit.

I have read much here on the CS-400 mods and I am sure we need a carb adjust but when I try to open up the screws a little more to get it to run richer, I find that the H and L screws are already fully open (with limiters).

Questions:

1) What causes the cut to curve? Is it more likely an unbalanced sharpen or possible bent bar? I know I can test that with a new chain, and I will but thought I would ask. If it is my sharpening, I woudl prefer to learn that properly than buy a new chain all the time.
2) How do you KNOW you have sharpened your chain properly? They dull so fast I cannot imagine doing anything other than a hand sharpen every few tanks of fuel.
3) Why did my first saw have a black bar and the second a silver? Different releases of the same model perhaps?
4) Is it typical for the CS-400 to run great out of box and then run like crap and need a carb adjust after a break in?
5) If H and L carb screws and already fully open, and closing them makes things worse, and techs are not allowed to remove limiters, then how the heck can the carb be adjusted so that it runs better (and likely richer).

I am seriously considering doing the limiter mod and perhaps the MM but I want to make sure I am armed with as much info as possible. I would prefer to not void warranty if I don't need to. I am also considering just taking it in for repair under warranty but would like to hear opinions first.

Thank all for your input.

 

[m21bmr]

Questions:

3) Why did my first saw have a black bar and the second a silver? Different releases of the same model perhaps?

I have noticed that the bar is painted silver on several of the newer model Echo saws (CS-590, CS-400, CS-490). I suspect it is just a cosmetic decision someone in management made.​

4) Is it typical for the CS-400 to run great out of box and then run like crap and need a carb adjust after a break in?

I don’t have any experience with a new CS-400, but I have purchased a used CS-400 and CS-370 (basically identical saw but slightly smaller engine). Both of those saws did not run well when I bought them. When I got it, my CS-400 would barely rev up, and it just bogged when the throttle was opened. As a second owner, I wasn’t worried about the warranty, so I removed the carb limiter caps to allow proper tuning. The saw ran great after I was able to tune the H screw a little richer.​

5) If H and L carb screws and already fully open, and closing them makes things worse, and techs are not allowed to remove limiters, then how the heck can the carb be adjusted so that it runs better (and likely richer).

I think a dealer can remove the limiters to allow more adjustment. In your case, I would probably take it in to a local dealer for warranty service and have it adjusted. If you aren’t too concerned about the warranty, Below is a video that shows a way to remove the limiter caps.

​

 

[pfarrelli]

Thanks. I will have to decide self tune or dealer. Leaning toward self. Regarding this video which I have seen, I have removed all screws as seen in the video and it seems that, 1) my black linkage bracket does seem to move nearly as easily or as far, and 2) with all screws removed I cannot lift the entire assembly back like he does so easily and I am concerned about forcing it and breaking something. Any idea on this?

Thanks!!

 

[Full Chisel]

Chances are the dealer will not be able to tune it properly with the limiters installed. Pull them and tune accordingly. There are some good YouTube videos on this subject.

 

[grack]

as for your bar questions some of my echoes had black some silver same bar different paint. Noticed when the 490 came out they went silver doesn't matter the finish wears off quickly doesn't affect anything. your better off learning to tune your saw after removing the limiters lots of great info on this site.

 

[pfarrelli]

Hey all,

Thanks for the replies. Well this AM I continued on removing, trimming, and replacing limiters after opening the housing last night as seen in the video in one of the previous posts. Once I replaced the limiters, I turned clockwise and seated both jets. Then I turned "L" out 2.5 times and H 3.5 times. It started it right up and though the idle was very slow and it stalled a couple times, it was MUCH BETTER than it was with NO bogging at all!! YAY! Oh, and before I did any adjustments I found that out of the box the "H" jet was turned out only about 1.75 turns. That seems VERY lean compared to my 3.5.

That said, I want to note a few things about removing the limiters as compared to what is seen in the video.. I think that the video, though very helpful, trivializes it a bit and it isn't quite as easy as it looks. Though it isn't that difficult either, here are some thoughts after having completed the task.

It isn't really necessary to remove the top plug/filter cover at all. Nor is it necessary to remove the collar around that area. In fact, if you follow all the steps in the video, once you remove that screw behind the air filter it is REALLY difficult and worrisome to pull up hard on the carb assembly so that the limiters are accessible above the orange housing as seen in the video. I was a little concerned that I would damage something and it seemed to me to require more stress than expected to get the limiters above the housing. Though removing the cover does give you additional light and visibility, it isn't needed. I ultimately ended up not lifting up on the carb and just inserted the drywall screw right in the port where you would make your carb adjustments with a screwdriver. I used a head mounted LED lamp for light. Good light is necessary as it is a bit of a PITA to line up the tabs before you pull up on the screw/limiter. It might be helpful to note that on my saw, and on other posts that I have read, the screws with the limiters on are turned 100% counter clockwise out of the box. Thus, the "L" limiter needs to be turned clockwise until the tab is lined up with the groove found at around the 4 o'clock position and the "H" limiter needs to be pretty much left alone (maybe minor adjusts) with the tab already lined up with the grove at the 11 O'clock position. You might find that when you insert your screw and twist after you have lined up the tab with the groove, that the tab will go off line to the right as you tighten the screw clockwise. Then, when you turn it back to realign it, the screw ends up loosening on you. You really need to play with it to get it just right. Once you have the screw in reasonably tight and the tab lined up, simply wiggle and pull up on the screw and up and out comes the limiter. YAY! I would caution that you not pull up on the screw if it is too loose as you may shred the center of the limiter making it difficult to reinsert the screw with enough grab to get the limiter out. Anyway, once out, I shaved the tabs off with a box cutter and replaced them in a matter of like one minute. By the way, each limiter had two tabs that I removed.

I hope this helps anyone who is attempting this, and again, thanks for your help. When I get home I will actually tune the saw and see how it goes. I am totally new to this so I need to find posts that describe what exactly to do. This AM, other than the slow idle, it seemed to be four-cycling (that popping sound) while at half throttle which didn't clear up or "two cycle" I guess until WOT. Not sure if it is supposed to be like that but will figure it out. Any comments on this are welcome.

P

 

[Full Chisel]

Your saw has a limited coil so it will need to be tuned in wood. Turn the H needle out to where it 4 strokes heavily in the cut(you should be close already at 3 1/2 turns) and slowly lean it out 1/4 turn until it cleans up and cuts well. It sounds like the L needle may need to be leaned out just a bit so it doesn't load up and die.

 

[pfarrelli]

I can't imagine such a process is all that safe and I don't really have a helper other than my 5 year old son. LOL Would it work to set, cut, stop ,set cut .. repeat until correct? What is a limited coil anyway?

Also, isn't it correct to work the L first until a good idle and then the H as described? Is there any time to work the T?

Thanks.

 

[row.man]

Cutting crooked is 99% a badly sharpened chain , easy way to check is mount a new chain on it and test the cut.
I bought a returned cs400 at home depot , it ran fine and had a new chain on it, might have been yours! I'm guessing someone at the depot tuned the saw, put a new chain on, and put it out for sale.
From what I've heard , the tuning on Echo saws is all over the place out of the box.

 

[pfarrelli]

Yep, got my two Oregon chains at the Depot just the other day. This saw only cuts larger logs crooked a tiny bit after a couple of sharpens, however, it was cutting VERY POORLY (liek hardly at all) the other night (as stated above). We shall see what happens after the tune and chair swap. Soooo excited! Probably was my saw .. LOL! It's a learning process I guess.

 

[Full Chisel]

I can't imagine such a process is all that safe and I don't really have a helper other than my 5 year old son. LOL Would it work to set, cut, stop ,set cut .. repeat until correct? What is a limited coil anyway?

Also, isn't it correct to work the L first until a good idle and then the H as described? Is there any time to work the T?

Thanks.

Just do it incrementally with each cut until it runs good. Definitely don't try to tune a saw running in wood with one hand...

Limited coil cuts the ignition past a set RPM to prevent overrev. This can mimic 4 stroking making it hard to tune by ear.

 

[row.man]

You might try some of that expensive fuel sold in cans just to verify that it isn't your fuel that is the problem .
Avoid ethanol gas in your saw anyway .
Another issue is the outside temp. there is an air shutter that you slide one way for over 40 and the other for under 40, having it wrong will make it overheat and run terrible

 

[pfarrelli]

Thanks again all for your help. New chain and tuned as per the following video and the saw runs GREAT. I will soon do the muff mod. So excited!!

 

[pfarrelli]

You might try some of that expensive fuel sold in cans just to verify that it isn't your fuel that is the problem .
Avoid ethanol gas in your saw anyway .
Another issue is the outside temp. there is an air shutter that you slide one way for over 40 and the other for under 40, having it wrong will make it overheat and run terrible

Thanks for this info. I always use ethanol free fuel and a bit of seafoam. Fuel was quite fresh, about a month old. Didn't know about the shutter. Will look for it.