Elec. or LP Backup heat suggestions???

[kentuckydiesel]

My wife and I are spending our first winter in our drafty 110+ year old farmhouse. This house is only about 1300 sqft and we don't really use the upstairs 550+/- sqft for any more than attic space at the moment...have the steps blocked off with plastic. Also, we don't have a basement or crawlspace. When we bought the house, it had a 50,000btu "cozy" LP console heater (vented through the existing brick chimney) and an LP wall mount radiant heater. Due to renovations, high LP heating costs, and an abundance of firewood on the property, we removed the two LP heaters, and put a wood stove in place of the old console heater.

While the wood stove is working great, I am interested in installing some sort of simple (and inexpensive) heating system which can be used as a backup during the cold months so we don't end up with frozen pipes if we are away from home longer than planned. Thinking some sort of baseboard heating...something that doesn't use much floor space. Any suggestions???

Thanks,

Phillip

 

[kentuckydiesel]

I just realized that I might be in a minority outside this site....I tried looking for info on backup heat, but it was all about wood stoves as backup heat for a furnace or boiler...not the other way around.

Haha

-Phillip

 

[Bomber]

I think the cheapest install from scratch would be electric baseboards in each room. You can set the temp in each individual room and they are cheap to buy. No worrying about fill ups either.

 

[kentuckydiesel]

I'm thinking about electric baseboard heat, lp baseboard heat, or lp radiant wall mount.

Anyone have experience with these? I have been around a wall mount unit before...didn't seem like it did much though.

-Phillip

 

[sunfish]

Elec base board is what I'd do.

We put in central elec heat and air in out 1200 foot home (FOR the AC). But it's nice when it kicks on early in the morning when the fire is out. Elec bill is only around $20 more per month. Wood stove is still our main heat source.

 

[TFPace]

Rates

I spoke to an electrical contractor today and were discussed a similar topic.

From cheapest to most expensive based on today's market.

1. NG
2. Electric
3. Fuel Oil
4. LPG

I was surprised to learn that LP is the most price.

I would look at base board too.

 

[branchbuzzer]

Remember that electric only works if the grid is supplying power to your home ( as in a storm can knock it out ). Not dissing this as an option, but you did say this was to keep your pipes from freezing when away.

I'm not an expert on how the others use indirect electricity ( like for the thermostat, etc. ) but no juice no heat with electric only.



Amazing how NG prices have stayed so low recently, saw some companies are trying to convert their fleets to use it for transport because of the price imbalance. NG is really helping keep a lid on oil and gasoline, which is a bit scary ain't it not....

 

[Chris-PA]

The only backup we have is electric space heaters. Ultimately I may install an air handler and auxiliary electric heater for a heat pump (but without the heat pump), but I don't know if I'll ever get around to it. I may just get a 4000W 240V heater unit. Since you plan to use it as backup, then the cost of installation should be more important than the cost of running it, and in that regard it will be hard to beat electric resistance heating of some sort.

 

[Chris-PA]

Amazing how NG prices have stayed so low recently, saw some companies are trying to convert their fleets to use it for transport because of the price imbalance. NG is really helping keep a lid on oil and gasoline, which is a bit scary ain't it not....

The NG fracking thing is another financial bubble - they're trading bogus NG leases like they did bogus mortgages. The reason they have to fracture the ground is because the rock is not porous. So they pump down fluid under pressure to break the rock, and it contains materials to keep the cracks that form open. But still the well production rates fall off very fast. Basically the distortions of the financial scam are causing them to produce as fact as possible, depleting the wells and masking the fact that the method costs a lot of money and isn't really economical at present gas prices. When the bubble pops prices will rise fast. Enjoy it while you can and make contingency plans.

 

[kentuckydiesel]

Remember that electric only works if the grid is supplying power to your home ( as in a storm can knock it out ). Not dissing this as an option, but you did say this was to keep your pipes from freezing when away.

Understood, but most likely, if there is some sort of weather issue than knocks out electric power, at least one of us will be able to stay home and tend the fire. My wife just works part time at a little neighborhood boutique type store. Mostly just social time...no big deal if she can't come in.


-Phillip

 

[Jules083]

have the steps blocked off with plastic.

I did that in my drafty farmhouse, it didn't work very well. What I ended up doing was buying a 4'x8'x2" piece of foam insulation and trimming it to fit the stairs. It took a while to trim it and get a tight fit, but it was well worth it. There's a few little spots that I have to stuff socks in, but it's sealed pretty well considering. It's also re-useable, and if I need upstairs I can get there without ripping the plastic down and starting over.

Is the LP wall mount heater you removed in good shape? I'd put that up somewhere and plan on using a combination of that heater and some baseboards. Maybe set the thermostat for the electric at 58 then set the LP at 56, or vise versa. It sounds like you already have everything to run the LP, might as well have it ready to go in case you ever need it.

 

[Whitespider]

From cheapest to most expensive based on today's market.

1. NG
2. Electric
3. Fuel Oil
4. LPG

That's not true everywhere. You guys out east are getting squeezed big-time on LP prices. Bulk delivered heating Propane is under $2.[sup]oo[/sup] per gallon here, making it #2 on the list and a whole lot cheaper than electric heat. My rural electric company whacks me near $0.11 per kWh... meaning the LP prices would have to almost double, to over $3.50 per gallon before it would become more expensive than electric. At current local LP prices my electric rate would have to be almost cut in half just to break-even. (I use LP for hot water and back-up/supplemental heat)

Here's a handy chart that can be used as a guide...

ENERGY BOOMER: HEATING WITH PROPANE

 

[1project2many]

While the wood stove is working great, I am interested in installing some sort of simple (and inexpensive) heating system which can be used as a backup during the cold months so we don't end up with frozen pipes if we are away from home longer than planned.

Well, if you are looking to warm the house you'll want a heating system. But if you're looking to keep the pipes from freezing you may be able to evaluate where the pipes are routed and use much smaller local heating (electric pipe heat tape or small solar panels with PEX lines routed through crawl spaces and walls where water pipes are for example) combined with thermostatic switches for automatic operation at lower long term cost. I'm sure plenty of people here can relate to being away from home and worrying more about the cost of the backup heat operating than whether or not the pipes freeze. It's always better to enjoy your days off.

Whitespider wrote:

That's not true everywhere. You guys out east are getting squeezed big-time on LP prices.

We get squeezed on all stationary energy prices. By stationary energy I mean energy for buildings and non-mobile equipment such as electricity, heating oil, and gas. The offset may be that many eastern areas tend to pay less for diesel and gasoline. Given total regional energy consumption per year that may work out to a net savings, but it doesn't help that the coldest months of the year also come with the highest prices.

 

[zogger]

My wife and I are spending our first winter in our drafty 110+ year old farmhouse. This house is only about 1300 sqft and we don't really use the upstairs 550+/- sqft for any more than attic space at the moment...have the steps blocked off with plastic. Also, we don't have a basement or crawlspace. When we bought the house, it had a 50,000btu "cozy" LP console heater (vented through the existing brick chimney) and an LP wall mount radiant heater. Due to renovations, high LP heating costs, and an abundance of firewood on the property, we removed the two LP heaters, and put a wood stove in place of the old console heater.

While the wood stove is working great, I am interested in installing some sort of simple (and inexpensive) heating system which can be used as a backup during the cold months so we don't end up with frozen pipes if we are away from home longer than planned. Thinking some sort of baseboard heating...something that doesn't use much floor space. Any suggestions???

Thanks,

Phillip

Electric goes out on you when you can least afford to lose it. Ice storms, etc.

I wouldn't count on electric for backup, go back to the propane somehow. Propane can store for decades, it is simple, can be manually run with zero needs for electricity.

Ya, you can get a generator and should have one, but really, them things can conk out on you too when you least suspect it and really need one.

And start now renovating adding insulation, that is by far and away the best "backup" you can pay for. Dollar for dollar, no fuel burning anything will recoup costs so fast, then be free from then on out.

You could also go fuel oil-diesel-if you plan on having a diesel tractor.

You already own the propane heaters, just reinstall them some other way would proly be the cheapest and easiest. And buy your bulk tank, don't rent it if you aren't going to be using a lot of propane.

We have 250 gallons of propane backup here, haven't needed it for four years now, same deal, old ultra leaky cabin. I don't own it or it would already have been torn apart and (super)insulated, but dang if I am going to do that for free.

 

[kentuckydiesel]

Electric goes out on you when you can least afford to lose it. Ice storms, etc.
Ya, you can get a generator and should have one, but really, them things can conk out on you too when you least suspect it and really need one.

I have a generator, but I have been looking for/thinking about building a big pto operated generator as my lil' 45hp JD 5200 is very fuel efficient. Smallest tractor I've ever really used regularly, but I love it.

And start now renovating adding insulation, that is by far and away the best "backup" you can pay for. Dollar for dollar, no fuel burning anything will recoup costs so fast, then be free from then on out.

Planning to re-insulate soon. The previous owners did the best they could...which wasn't all that great.

You could also go fuel oil-diesel-if you plan on having a diesel tractor.

Have a diesel tractor...a diesel dump/plow/salt truck, and two diesel pickups...see above.

Whitespider, thanks for that chart...I'm gonna do some looking into that.

-Phillip

 

[Felman]

Ventless LP heater ideally located on N side of drafty house or wherever the winter prevailing wind comes from.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Should have kept those LP wall heaters, some/most have standing pilots, can run with no electric.

 

[kentuckydiesel]

Should have kept those LP wall heaters, some/most have standing pilots, can run with no electric.

It was just one...and it's in my shed. I'd like to throw it in the kitchen or bathroom, but don't really have the wall space.

-phillip

 

[logbutcher]

With your mechanical skills similar to what you've done with the Encore, your best payback is to insulate the hell out of the place.
Labor intensive, not so expensive for materials (e.g. blown-in foam, closed cell foam boards), insulate around the foundation ( many here use hay bales covered with plastic), FG batts on the upstairs floor, and important: seal the windows and doors. Payback with this is fast.

For backup your thru-the-wall LP heaters are most efficient for quick intermittent heat. Most can run, as was said, without power.

When we leave in winter for a short trip, 1/2 the house is closed off and sealed from the other half. Only 1/2 has plumbing; an Empire gas wall unit keeps it up to ~ 50F.

 

[slowp]

We have low (compared to most other places) cost electricity. My county has its own dam for hydropower.
I live in a fairly mild climate, and have Cadet Heaters as a backup. They are small, wall mounted heaters and have a fan to blow out the heat. The bad thing is, they are noisy and you don't want to put any furniture in front of them--or the dog bed.

I've lived in houses in cold climates with electric baseboard heat. The baseboards will take up more wall space. I almost started a fire when I somehow put a pillow against the heater. They do not do well if your house is not well insulated--when our temps were around 0 and we were having nasty winds, I couldn't get the rooms warmer than 60. Of course, that will keep pipes from freezing, it just wasn't adequate for all the time.

Base boards are noisy. The metal pops while expanding and contracting. The thing I like is that you can control the heat in the house room by room, which can also be done with cadet heaters.

Our power is pretty reliable here. The PUD (Public Utility District) does a lot of maintenance on our lines. We are lucky that they do.