Extreme leaner. How would you drop it?

[TermiteBuffet]

I heard once where chains and straps belong.........

Oooo, oooo I know the answer to this one ......

Pedal Tractor Loggin'

 

[CoreyB]

I heard once where chains and straps belong.........

Wait I thought it was whips and chains or is it straps and whips. Or..... yep now I am just showing how boring my life has been.

 

[Trx250r180]

Well the only chain you need is the one whippin around your bar,as for the straps you are on your own on that part of the riddle.

 

[bitzer]

I think I would put a ratchet strap around the tree about 2 foot above where you are gonna cut. Get it as tight as you can. Cut a notch on the side facing the ground, give it about a 2" of hinge, plunge cut straight behind the point of the notch, and cut upwards and out the top. Be ready to move as soon as the saw cuts through on the top side as that tree is coming down. I mite even abandon the saw if pinched after the final cut.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I527 using Tapatalk

You will never have time to cut thru to the back. Dead saw.

 

[bitzer]

Ok but I thought you are supposed to do a bore or plunge to keep it from barber chairing. It is hickory and they really like to do that.
So is it the consensus that in this circumstance it is better for a barber chair then a bore cut?

You need to remove as much compression wood as possible. Chairs occur in the compression wood. It leaning that hard the tree will likely sit tight on yer bar if you bore it. Also what if the tension wood is not that great and as soon as you poke thru the other side on your bore the tree takes off? You could face it (wide open). Bore the heart from the face. Then use a coos bay back cut. Make sure you cut the pinch side first. It won't take much on the other side to get it. Either way its going to be messy. Just make sure you don't kill yourself or the saw. That means keeping the bar in a place where you can easily get it out of instead of thru the middle of the tree. I do this kind of stuff every day for a living.

 

[bitzer]

Yep

 

[Philbert]

Chairs occur in the compression wood. It leaning that hard the tree will likely sit tight on yer bar if you bore it.

Thanks for that explanation. Compression wood being part of the bore cut helps explain how a bar might get pinched.

Philbert

 

[CoreyB]

You need to remove as much compression wood as possible. Chairs occur in the compression wood. It leaning that hard the tree will likely sit tight on yer bar if you bore it. Also what if the tension wood is not that great and as soon as you poke thru the other side on your bore the tree takes off? You could face it (wide open). Bore the heart from the face. Then use a coos bay back cut. Make sure you cut the pinch side first. It won't take much on the other side to get it. Either way its going to be messy. Just make sure you don't kill yourself or the saw. That means keeping the bar in a place where you can easily get it out of instead of thru the middle of the tree. I do this kind of stuff every day for a living.

That is a great and very clear explanation!
Thank you for taking the time to explain it and share your valuable information.

 

[turnkey4099]

You need to remove as much compression wood as possible. Chairs occur in the compression wood. It leaning that hard the tree will likely sit tight on yer bar if you bore it. Also what if the tension wood is not that great and as soon as you poke thru the other side on your bore the tree takes off? You could face it (wide open). Bore the heart from the face. Then use a coos bay back cut. Make sure you cut the pinch side first. It won't take much on the other side to get it. Either way its going to be messy. Just make sure you don't kill yourself or the saw. That means keeping the bar in a place where you can easily get it out of instead of thru the middle of the tree. I do this kind of stuff every day for a living.

The devil is in the details. Jusst how do you determine how much compression wood you can remove before sticking the saw. For the tree under discussion it ain't a gonna be very much!!

Harry K

 

[bitzer]

The devil is in the details. Jusst how do you determine how much compression wood you can remove before sticking the saw. For the tree under discussion it ain't a gonna be very much!!

Harry K

You would be surprised. Bore the heart from the face. Then cut from behind the hinge to the back on both sides. You have to watch the second side cuz it might sit on yer tip then. You have to feel it. If it will go before getting to the other side cut as much off as you can from the side you're on and work over to the other side til it goes.

 

[Gypo Logger]

Sloping, not sloppy undercuts are one way to deal with leaners under 16"
The sloping undercut cuts the weight of the lean in half and swings the tree at the angle of the undercut.
It's all pointless if you leave an unintentional dutchman or your saw is so slow it can't get out of it's own way.
I chopped down this mighty spruce with an 024 Super I built today out of an 026.

 

[CoreyB]

I thought I would add a couple of videos I fond on the subject.
So this way is bad? And should not be done?


Here is one that I think is showing the coos bay and another that I do not know if has been brought up.

 

[olympyk_999]

at this rate it will die and fall on its own...just cut the damn thing!

 

[Trx250r180]

at this rate it will die and fall on its own...just cut the damn thing!

Now if he went and did that this wicked cool thread would be over.

 

[hardpan]

You would be surprised. Bore the heart from the face. Then cut from behind the hinge to the back on both sides. You have to watch the second side cuz it might sit on yer tip then. You have to feel it. If it will go before getting to the other side cut as much off as you can from the side you're on and work over to the other side til it goes.

Thanks for your instruction and patience. It is a safe bet to say you have a large but silent fan base here. Many of us are a "grasshopper" watching a master. I, for one, am surprised to learn how much compression wood is actually on the back side of the hinge of a hard leaner. For some reason I erroneously assumed the hinge was the dividing line between compression and tension wood on an extreme leaner.

 

[Marshy]

The actual spliting of the fibers when it chairs is the line where the compression and tension wood meet, its the highest point sheer force. Just thought I would throw that in there.

 

[hardpan]

The actual spliting of the fibers when it chairs is the line where the compression and tension wood meet, its the highest point sheer force. Just thought I would throw that in there.

OK that is logical. I wonder how close to the center of the stem that would be? Does that point move as the lean increases? Why does cutting the heart out prevent a chair? I am not doubting anybody, just trying to understand and predict it better.

 

[Marshy]

The plane between compression and tension will always be half the cross sectional area regardless of lean. Only the forces and stress increase with more lean. As previously stated, that plane right where compression turns to tension is where the highest shear force is generated. Once you cut into the trunk of the tree to make your face cut the plane moves away from your cut because there is less cross sectional area and it will always normalize to the shape of the cross section. This also causes more stress because the same load is now carried on a smaller cross sectional area (hence why a shallow face is important). In theory that plane is where the wood will fail but because trees are non-uniform and can have defects its possible they wont fail exactly where the shear plane is. Remember, its only theory and assumes perfect condition unlike the real world.



Cutting out the center with a bore cut will lower the stress on the fibers. Take the image above (c) for example. The dotted red line is the center line of the cross sectional area, where shear is the highest. Cut the heart out and shear is nearly removed at the peak.

This is all based on bending stress and it applies to all materials.

 

[bitzer]

Theory is a good thing and I am constantly thinking of new cuts and ways to cut. Compression wood can also become tension wood and vice versa. I will bet the tree in question would still pinch 3/4 of the way back. Think of it this way. How far would you have to cut before the tree exploded off the stump if you just started backcutting it? I bet inches and it will chair from there. Also when you remove wood from the face the tree will lean ahead. Different fibers will compress and tense. The line of compression and tension moves back.

Removing the heart wood removes more compression wood. A tree can still split its sides when you remove the heart, but won't chair.

This was all learned the hard way.

 

[bitzer]

Thanks for your instruction and patience. It is a safe bet to say you have a large but silent fan base here. Many of us are a "grasshopper" watching a master. I, for one, am surprised to learn how much compression wood is actually on the back side of the hinge of a hard leaner. For some reason I erroneously assumed the hinge was the dividing line between compression and tension wood on an extreme leaner.

Thank you. I'm just trying to pass on what I've learned and been lucky to walk away from.