Firewooding philosophy question -

[ak4195]

The most important thing to consider is...is there still enough wine for the end of the day or does he have to run to town...

ak4195

 

[Nuzzy]

I vote same axe. If I slowly overtime replace every part on my jeep, it's still my same jeep. All that counts is that there is some holdover part in between improvements

 

[woodbooga]

Wow bugga that was deep! Gotta find my snorkel before I can reply to that.

Or the hip boots. Whichever's closer. I was turning this old riddle over in my head whilst knocking apart some kindling of my own out to the barn last night. Anything to keep my mind off from the wicked cold swirling hereabouts.

My feeling is that when he had to replace the head the axe was worn out. The head could still carry sentimental value and maybe find a place to hang on the wall of the barn but it could not be replaced. It's value comes from it's history and doesn't have to be lost just because it no longer serves it's original purpose.

My mother-in-law's a nurse at a retirement home - a building full of people who no longer serve their original purpose and who have few opportunities to take part in fulfilling work. Conversely, I volunteer with a retired contractor in his mid-80s. Sure he's had some patching up over the years, but he's as sure footed 30' up on a ladder as a guy half his age.

As for the yuppies axe it completely carries it's original spirit, all it ever did was sit.

Good point. But was the intended use (spirit) of that ax to be a wall decoration? Either of the maker or the original purchaser?

I still feel when he replaced it he had a new axe.

In the end, this is one of those questions that doesn't have a definite yes or no answer. And I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. Just exercising the ole gray matter. (Also too, I like this riddle better than 'what's the sound of one hand clapping').

 

[slinger]

Dahn fine axe this is he-yah."

______________________

What do you all think? opcorn:

Define the word:this lol

 

[myzamboni]

i don't think it has anything to do with originality. for the yankee it's the physical form of the axe. he acknowledges the changing of handles and head, but the physical form of the axe he has been using since childhood is preserved (i.e. he has not purchased a new axe it its complete form with the intention of replacing his current axe).

Booga: Nice story to show how much we have become a throw-away society.

 

[jerryw66]

This is a fine post, reminds me of an old neighbor friend of mine. He burns wood, and in the late 80's, drove and old Ford Pinto. My father had driven one then too, but decided to park it and get something a little better. Dad's pinto was just fine running and was sitting out behind my barn, the old neighbor noticed it and asked if he could get some parts off of it, the starter I think. When the old boy drove his over to my place, I couldn't believe how bad his pinto was, the dog had chewed up all the apholstery, windshield was smashed, rust everywhere, barely would run, had to push start it and so on. I told the old boy,"you should just take Dad's car and use it and use your car for a parts car." He replied, "that would not work at all" I asked him why not? he told me,"because my car has no parts worth using." He took the parts from Dad's car and paid me fairly, I thought," as long as he's happy."

 

[Dave]

O.K, apparently it's too cold/windy for anyone to be productive today, so let's gum it up some more. Say said Yankee wore out the edge on said axe and being a true Yankee he drives the handle out, throws the axe head in the forge to a bright red, splits it open and re-steels it. Still the original head? Or the opposite- dopey uncle Herkimer drives wedges with said axe and splits the eye open. No axe ever held an edge like that one so said thrifty/frugal/cheap Yankee cuts the edge off the head and forges the the rest of the head from a piece of wrought iron. now where do we stand? Then there's my pickup- 1978 F250 4WD, third engine, 2nd bed, seat replaced, frame broken and reinforced, if medication can't help me cab and bed soon to be installed on a 1987 F350 4WD drw 6.9 chassis- when is it no longer a 1978 F250?

 

[Laird]

I still like my answer the best. To him it's the same axe he's been using all his life. To me he's replaced 100% of the parts so it's a different axe than what he started with.

 

[mga]

Define the word:this lol

actually, you have a good point.

when the old man said "this is a fine axe", he was talking about the newer version of his old axe. he didn't say this was a fine axe.

so, in name only, just like the model A and the copy of the constitution, it's still called an axe.

if any of you feel it's the original axe, would you buy it as an original antique?

 

[Ductape]

The Answer Is..........................

I'd just punch the address I was lookin for into my dashtop GPS. That way I can get from wence i was coming from to where i was going to without all the hub-bub.

 

[woodbooga]

iNice story to show how much we have become a throw-away society.

We either must have some books in common in our libraries or else you're incredibly insightful.

An acquaintence of mine who lives on the other side of the state wrote a book titled, The Same Ax, Twice: Restoration and Renewal in a Throwaway Age. It's a great read for anyone interested in how history figures in our everyday lives. Being from NH, it has a strong New England/back east focus. The whole publication is available as a google book at http://books.google.com/books?id=j90jfCmmB0kC&dq=same+ax+twice&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=DHU7S-jGJo67lAe1mICxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

BTW, I see you list your location as Silicone Valley. Always struck me as kind of an oxymoron. When I think silicone, I think mountains...not valleys.

 

[SpiralAcacia]

wicked cold swirling hereabouts.
My mother-in-law's a nurse at a retirement home - a building full of people who no longer serve their original purpose and who have few opportunities to take part in fulfilling work. Conversely, I volunteer with a retired contractor in his mid-80s. Sure he's had some patching up over the years, but he's as sure footed 30' up on a ladder as a guy half his age.

Now this here is the REAL answer to the quan...
'cause we ain't talking about axes, we're talking about people and essence...
To rephrase the question into its non-parable form,
Who am I?
If over the years I change, who am I - What is "I"?
Can we have an "I"? Does it mean anything?
Habbits can and do change (You were afflicted with CAD and haven't been your same selves since, have you...
Looks change, dwelling changes, knowledge changes, friends change...
Who are you without them all?
You the same person?

It is simple to show it with an ax - only two parts...
But us people, SOOO complicated it seems all these complication, parts, ways and looks make us who we are...
But does it really?
What DOES make us who we ARE?

Now IMHO, THIS is the real question.

BTW
Heard the story about a costumer in a bar wondering at an axe hanging over the fireplace and the owner says, Yes, it belonged to Abe Lincoln, only the handle was replaced 3 times, the head 2 times.

SA
SA

 

[Laird]

Now this here is the REAL answer to the quan...
'cause we ain't talking about axes, we're talking about people and essence...
To rephrase the question into its non-parable form,
Who am I?
If over the years I change, who am I - What is "I"?
Can we have an "I"? Does it mean anything?
Habbits can and do change (You were afflicted with CAD and haven't been your same selves since, have you...
Looks change, dwelling changes, knowledge changes, friends change...
Who are you without them all?
You the same person?

It is simple to show it with an ax - only two parts...
But us people, SOOO complicated it seems all these complication, parts, ways and looks make us who we are...
But does it really?
What DOES make us who we ARE?

Now IMHO, THIS is the real question.

BTW
Heard the story about a costumer in a bar wondering at an axe hanging over the fireplace and the owner says, Yes, it belonged to Abe Lincoln, only the handle was replaced 3 times, the head 2 times.

SA
SA

Boy I sure missed the boat, I never saw the question as one of metaphysics........

 

[davec]

BTW, I see you list your location as Silicone Valley. Always struck me as kind of an oxymoron. When I think silicone, I think mountains...not valleys.

Common misunderstanding. He lists his location as Silicon Valley, not Silicone Valley. Silicon (Si) is the element that is used in semiconductors. Silicone is a class of materials that are polymers and compounds of Si (the element) and can be anything from very thin liquids to rubber polymers and a variety of other things (adhesives, cosmetics...). Si is the only element besides Carbon (C) that readily forms polymers in certain forms.

But to the original question, it is like most philopsophy: Fun to argue but no real answer ... and thus my engineering brain also equates that to "why bother arguing it then?"

-Dave

 

[woodbooga]

actually, you have a good point.

when the old man said "this is a fine axe", he was talking about the newer version of his old axe. he didn't say this was a fine axe.

If the old timer hadn't had to drop out of grammar school at age 12 to help his father with the family junk business, he'd understand finer points of usage like the past progressive tense of verbs.

But rather, he was caught up in a small reverie, reflecting upon an implement that had been a major part of his seasonal chores for 70ish years - a recurring round of events the remained largely unchanged during that period.

if any of you feel it's the original axe, would you buy it as an original antique?

No...with a 'but'...

An antique, almost by definition, is something antiquated. It takes on a second life not as a useful implement but rather for decorative or some other purpose. Museums are filled with hand tools no one knows how to use anymore. It's the difference between a museum of silent pianos and a music school.

I'd just punch the address I was lookin for into my dashtop GPS. That way I can get from wence i was coming from to where i was going to without all the hub-bub.

LOL! Flatlander.

How them Priuses (Prii?) handle on the washboard-bumpy gravel roads? Let us know when you get safely to the Starbucks

 

[woodbooga]

Now this here is the REAL answer to the quan...
'cause we ain't talking about axes, we're talking about people and essence...
To rephrase the question into its non-parable form,
Who am I?
If over the years I change, who am I - What is "I"?
Can we have an "I"? Does it mean anything?
Habbits can and do change (You were afflicted with CAD and haven't been your same selves since, have you...
Looks change, dwelling changes, knowledge changes, friends change...
Who are you without them all?
You the same person?

It is simple to show it with an ax - only two parts...
But us people, SOOO complicated it seems all these complication, parts, ways and looks make us who we are...
But does it really?
What DOES make us who we ARE?

Now IMHO, THIS is the real question.

BTW
Heard the story about a costumer in a bar wondering at an axe hanging over the fireplace and the owner says, Yes, it belonged to Abe Lincoln, only the handle was replaced 3 times, the head 2 times.

SA
SA

Same can be asked of an even simpler object - a bar of soap. Is it really the same bar of soap I used the previous day? After all it's smaller!

Seriously, it's funny looking at an old photo album at pictures of yourself as you were at 5 or 16. Being the old guy I am now, wondering if the kid in the picture would recognize who he'd become.

Common misunderstanding. He lists his location as Silicon Valley, not Silicone Valley. Silicon (Si) is the element that is used in semiconductors.

And other applications too. Interesting notion to bounce around.

 

[woodbooga]

I still like my answer the best. To him it's the same axe he's been using all his life. To me he's replaced 100% of the parts so it's a different axe than what he started with.

So it boils down to individual perspectives? And the relative realities they're perspectives of?

Or put another way - that "A" and "not A" can simultaneously be the same thing at the same time.

Who's that lady quoted in your signature?

 

[Fronty Owner]

when did it stop being original, 10 percent new parts, 51 percent, 99 percent.​

there is always one part that defines the item. the equipment we build at work has one part that is serialized. we will replace any part of the equipment except the serialized part. You buy new equipment then.
Firearms are the same way. the serialized part is the only thing you cant replace. it defines the firearm.
An axe has a defining feature. the head. every head is a bit different from the shape and grind, to the grain and metallurgy.
I have swung a few axes over the years and even very similar axes produce different feels. I had a double bit axe when I was about 13 that I absolutely loved swinging. It just felt right. but I moved from my grandmother, left the axe with her, she passed away, and I think one of my uncles got it or tossed it. either way, the handle probably rotted and the head rusted.

 

[wood4heat]

So it boils down to individual perspectives? And the relative realities they're perspectives of?

Yup. Me, I like something to hold onto. To think "this is the very same tool held by my grandfather and touched by his hands. The same tool I've used and built a relationship with over all these years." For the axe the head holds that essence. It's the component that does the work and makes it uniquely an axe. The handle is merely the thing that controls it, like the steering wheel in a car. There are many different handles as there are many different steering wheels all performing the same function yet the machines they operate are unique.

 

[woodbooga]

For the axe the head holds that essence. It's the component that does the work and makes it uniquely an axe. The handle is merely the thing that controls it, like the steering wheel in a car. There are many different handles as there are many different steering wheels all performing the same function yet the machines they operate are unique.

Is there ever an instance where the sum is never greater than its constituent parts?