Fully Synthetic 2 Cycle Oil Vs Standard?

[Jo3]

My two cents....

At best :
Every single 2T engine need a specific 2T oil.... and in every manual, the indication of what kind of oil is written.

Example :
Suzuki 47P (120cc) installed on old Toro Commercial lawnmover has got a compression ratio 6:1* : this "IRON" 2Stroke needs a very low flash point oil,
A high 2 Stroke engine oil (competition kart) is not good.
(*)The suzuki is rated to run 30.000 hours without any overhaul.

 

[rogue60]

But..but..hang on you can't say this, the AS engine builders have been advocating the use of synthetics for many years. How can this be so? Is it possible all along that they have been completely wrong? Sheeze, that's a rather large bitter pill to swallow. The problem is most make there oil choice based on either, marketing they have swallowed, marketing others have swallowed & then regurgitated & price (because expensive oil must be better right). Despite what many think, very few make their oil choice off putting X amount of gallons through their SAW & comparing it to another oil THEY put X amount of gallons through their saw & coming to a rational decision. Most won't even touch a high quality mineral oil to begin with. Many have never even run an oil that aids the combustion process in their saw. But spec sheets, saw builder recommendations and marketing from oil blenders they are well versed on. Its the way it is, I gave up trying to convince anyone about anything to do with oil years ago. Moving a sand dune with a kitchen fork is far easier. Incorrect oil choice loyalty is so strong it'll outlast religion. Give it some time & you'll realise your efforts are futile, but I sincerely do admire your tenacity!

Best one is when they blame stuck gummed up rings, intake load side of piston skirt wear, plating warn through and bigend/crank bearing failures all on sawdust fines! lol

 

[North by Northwest]

Lot of good information from some knowledgeable gents . Being 65 yrs young I have pretty well tested all oil technology offered in the last 50 yrs . Either while racing snowmobiles and dirt bikes semi professionally to recreational vehicles to chainsaws , trimmers and lawnmowers . Great discussion that has brought back some fond memories from my earlier yrs . Castor oil was a fad during my racing days for severe service engine anti galling protection , however decarboning was routine , Klotz was my choice in the day . 16:1 oil to fuel was the norm back in the early 60,s within 2 stroke air cooled engines via straight Sae. 30 dino oil technology . Today other then when warranted eg. old Lawnboy mowers , I utilize the best technology of the day which is full premium grade synthetic oil for obvious reasons . My choice Amsoil Sabre mixed at either 50:1 or 70:1 dependant on whether the engine is air cooled or liquid cooled . There are most likely 6 other equally adequate syn oils available that have already been mentioned . Mineral oils other than Lawnboy applications are a step backwards in my educated opinion .

 

[BlacknTan]

In spite of the heat they get, I always read mix oil threads with great interest.

I know nothing about 2 or 4 stroke oil. I'm not an engineer, and have no insider who's brains I can pick. All I can do is follow the manufacturer's recommendation, my dealer's recommendations (and my dealer knows alot about chainsaw and small equipment engines!,) and follow my own instincts about what information to trust, so, I follow my dealer's advice first and manufacturer's advice second. They both concur, so I figure I can't be too far wrong...

JMHO.

 

[Termite]

My choice Amsoil Sabre mixed at either 50:1 or 70:1 dependant on whether the engine is air cooled or liquid cooled . There are most likely 6 other equally adequate syn oils available that have already been mentioned . Mineral oils other than Lawnboy applications are a step backwards in my educated opinion .

A question for ya, do you consider Group 3 oils synthetic or just groups 4 & 5.

This Amsoil product apparently mixes a group 5 oil with a group 1 oil and has a lot of solvents to bring the flash point down to 102C. I bet the business model loves this oil. It's only $52 a gallon.

AMSoil Dominator (data: #1 #2)
Cost: $13.17/liter
25-40% group 5 oil, 30-50% group 1 oils (CAS 64742-47-8 + 64742-48-9)
viscosity 7.2 @ 100ºC, 36.5 @ 40ºC, viscosity index 165, .87 density, 102ºC flash point
unapproved rating: API TC

This Amsoil product apparently mixes a group 5 oil with a group 1 oil and has a lot of solvents to bring the flash point down to 102C. I bet the business model likes this one.

 

[bwalker]

Couple of things. There is no need a to break in a saw. The lower ends on saws have ball bearings so there is nothing to break in there. The top end does benifit from the rings being seated to the cylinder, but this only happens with load. I run the snot out of them right off the bat to seat the rings.
As for oil. What's more important than if the oil is synthetic or not is that the oil being specifically formulated for air cooled equipment. Any oil that is actually Jaso FD or ISO EGD certified will work great.

 

[bwalker]

My two cents....

At best :
Every single 2T engine need a specific 2T oil.... and in every manual, the indication of what kind of oil is written.

Example :
Suzuki 47P (120cc) installed on old Toro Commercial lawnmover has got a compression ratio 6:1* : this "IRON" 2Stroke needs a very low flash point oil,
A high 2 Stroke engine oil (competition kart) is not good.
(*)The suzuki is rated to run 30.000 hours without any overhaul.

How did you come to the conclusion a low flashpoint oil is beneficial in that particular motor?

 

[bwalker]

In this article by RK-TECH they use the term "Synthetic" I don't know if they are talking about Groups 3,4 and 5 or just Groups 4 & 5. I believe it to be groups 4 & 5.

SUMMARY:
Synthetic Oils are engineered to withstand high heat without chemically breaking-down like their petroleum based counter-parts.

2 Stroke Oils are NOT subjected to the same level of heat of that of a 4 stroke oil.

Fuel, not oil, is the main cooling agent in a 2 stroke engine.

Oil, not fuel, is the main cooling agent of a 4 stroke engine.

Due to the method in which the oil is introduced, and the fact that it is not re-circulated, a synthetic based oil is not required to avoid oil break-down. The elements that mandate a non petroleum based oil are simply not present in a 2 stroke engine.

Synthetic oils are much harder to "burn" Usually, they do not burn. This is a problem is a 2 stroke engine.

Some Synthetic oil molecules CAN BE larger is size and can NOT penetrate (get into) the tiny areas that require lubrication (like lower rod bearings etc.)

Oil penetration is a necessity for bearing to survive under extreme load/heat.

There is one argument that many use. It is something like this: "Well, my exhaust valves stay much cleaner when using synthetic oil". Interesting... Ask yourself, What does clean exhaust valves have to do with bearing and cylinder lubrication?? Answer: NOTHING!

Please do not confuse clean exhaust valves with better lubrication. They are NOT related. In fact, the fact that the valves are clean lends credibility to the fact that the synthetic oil is NOT burning/combusting or penetrating small areas but rather just "gliding" over parts without impregnating in the parts (needed).

Oil must attach itself and penetrate into the "voids" of your engine. The smaller the oil molecule, the easier it is for this to happen...too large of molecule (synthetic) and it can not enter the needed/required areas. OIL is your engine's life blood!!

SIDE NOTES:

1) BRP/ Ski Doo quit recommending synthetic oil to be used in their snowmobile engines in 2006.

2) Synthetic Oil can NOT be used to properly seat piston rings. This is a KNOWN fact to the manufacturers of synthetic oil. MOST have a non-synthetic "Break-In" oil that is used to properly break-in a new engine.

3) AND the #1 reason why a synthetic oil is not as good in a 2 stroke engine--> IT DOES NOT FULLY COMBUST!

Your engine takes the energy from the combustion process to perform work on the crank train. This energy conversion is "fueled" from the Fuel/Air/Oil Mixture that it has available during the combustion process.

The Fuel and the Air will combust and be converted to energy.

The oil (if Synthetic) will not be converted to energy because it will usually not combust. So, this "oil" is taking up "space" in the head that will not aid with any energy transfer. Basically, DEAD WEIGHT!

Mineral oil WILL combust and aid in this conversion of energy! So, its energy is utilized!

Kelsey, the author of that article should stick to building heads. Almost none of it is factual.

 

[bwalker]

Just another consideration , ethanol prevents mineral oils to adhere to metal surfaces properly . Only Full Synthetic oil or Castor based oils fully adhere to metal surfaces when mixed with ethanol based gasoline !

Ethanol has the same effect and worse on castor and ester based oils.

 

[North by Northwest]

Termite , as a former Stationary Engineer and not a Chemical Engineer I classify Dino or Mineral Oils in the Group II & III API guidelines , Synthetics are governed more by the Group IV & V Spec,s . As for Amsoil Dominator or Interceptor Grade Synthetic Oils are 50:1 rated oils , although they do have the benefits of the additives of Sabre they do not have the additional viscosity lubricity and Shear strength of Sabre Professional which is Manufacturer recommended at ratio,s from 50:1 to 100:1 . This old school premix methodology gives me all he protection I require at various fuel to oil ratios for different 2 stroke small engine applications . P.S. Sabre @ $10.50 / litre my cost !

 

[North by Northwest]

bwalker , Caster based oils have the much higher shear strength than conventional base mineral oils and the highest anti-galling properties of this base group oil class. I ran Klotz caster oil mixed with alcohol fuel for yrs in competition with no ill effects . Have also ran numerous saws , trimmers , blowers etc. mixed with Premium Grade Synthetic oils with no lublicity or shear strength reduction from ethanol or water entrainment issues . The majority of Premium Synthetic oil manufacturers have anti oxident , and water dispersent additives which preclude such ill effects . The most prevalent consideration for oil selection is Service Duty Rating , this ensures the oil provides reliable protection for the pressures & temperatures ( load and rpm ) that it will be potentially subjected to .

 

[BlacknTan]

I remember when Stihl Ultra was the greatest thing since sliced bread on the boards...

Now, not so much??

 

[North by Northwest]

Stihl Ultra is still a fine oil in my opinion , as is Bel-Ray , Spectrum and 3 other Syn Group oils . Some operators seem to be less tolerant within emmisions sensitivities than others . Often the application or duration of engine usage may be the basic if not contributing factors ! .

 

[North by Northwest]

In spite of the heat they get, I always read mix oil threads with great interest.

I know nothing about 2 or 4 stroke oil. I'm not an engineer, and have no insider who's brains I can pick. All I can do is follow the manufacturer's recommendation, my dealer's recommendations (and my dealer knows alot about chainsaw and small equipment engines!,) and follow my own instincts about what information to trust, so, I follow my dealer's advice first and manufacturer's advice second. They both concur, so I figure I can't be too far wrong...

JMHO.

Black , Dealers do not always provide the customer with best long term advice . I remember back in the 70,s a snowmobile dealer telling customers that they must use their manufacturer oil @ 32:1 when every other brand was running 50:1 with no ill effects . Dealer 1 sold a lot of spark plugs and spent warranty dollers decarbonizing cyl.heads or replacing damaged pistons from carbon fouled engines !

 

[North by Northwest]

I have played with all types of not only oils, but fuels and additives. The gains can be substantial. I have a pretty good combination for cookie cutting, most guys do. For normal cutting I just run what I've see protects the best and runs good, don't worry too much about it in a work saw, pretty much any oil will work there, except maybe Lucas oil lol.[emoji111]

Ditto that Bud !

 

[bwalker]

bwalker , Caster based oils have the much higher shear strength than conventional base mineral oils and the highest anti-galling properties of this base group oil class. I ran Klotz caster oil mixed with alcohol fuel for yrs in competition with no ill effects . Have also ran numerous saws , trimmers , blowers etc. mixed with Premium Grade Synthetic oils with no lublicity or shear strength reduction from ethanol or water entrainment issues . The majority of Premium Synthetic oil manufacturers have anti oxident , and water dispersent additives which preclude such ill effects . The most prevalent consideration for oil selection is Service Duty Rating , this ensures the oil provides reliable protection for the pressures & temperatures ( load and rpm ) that it will be potentially subjected to .

Two cycle oils are not subjected to high shear nor high pressure. Gear oils are.
I am well aware of castor's strengths. Which in no way over come its many issues when used in O P E.
Just for giggles what anti oxidant and water dispersent additives do you suppose are present in two cycle oils?

 

[bwalker]

I remember when Stihl Ultra was the greatest thing since sliced bread on the boards...

Now, not so much??

Ultra is pure garbage in a saw. Might be useful in a 4 mix, but I will never know, because I refuse to own one.

 

[CR888]

The most prevalent consideration for oil selection is Service Duty Rating , this ensures the oil provides reliable protection for the pressures & temperatures ( load and rpm ) that it will be potentially subjected to .

Can you explain how SDR is related to 2stoke oils. Thanx

 

[North by Northwest]

Can you explain how SDR is related to 2stoke oils. Thanx

If you insist mate ! All internal combustion engines oils are rated for specific engine service groups (Sae.) . Api-TC is the applicable group that my current choice " Sabre " qualifies . Api- EGD would be your European rating equivalent mate . As to larger automotive or commercial or industrial 2 cycle applications Api-CD or C. F. would apply as to most stringent standards . As a former Diesel Mechanic back in the day I serviced numerous industrial 2 cycle diesels in the Mining Sector for ventilation and auxiliary lighting gen sets .

 

[North by Northwest]

Ultra is pure garbage in a saw. Might be useful in a 4 mix, but I will never know, because I refuse to own one.

Nothing wrong with Ultra , a very stout Premium Grade oil with the Jasco rating to back it . I however prefer Amsoil or Redmax due to $/litre costs . Most complaints I have heard were from exhaust screen and port carb on fouling due to over rich conditions . Fuel to Air or Fuel to Oil situations . Often attributed to High octane fuel usage which contribute further to these symptoms .