Global warming and burning firewood

[tek9tim]

Windthrown
Fires. I think the biggest problem with the public's perception of fire is that it's a bad thing. Yellowstone, for example. Mostly lodgepole pine. The natural fire cycle for it is to grow doghair thick, reach maturity, have large, high intensity stand replacement fires, then regenerate doghair thick, and so on. Everyone was so shocked after Yellowstone upon seeing the "destruction" that the fires caused, and then everything came back the way it should. Of course, you're familiar with the fire cycle for ponderosa pine, which should burn every 10-15 years with low intensity fires.

Then there're the mixed conifer forests of western Washington and Oregon, that generally stay pretty moist, and don't burn. Until you get years of drought or disease stacked up, and then the forest burns with high intensity, killing most of the trees. The problem with these forests is that it isn't natural to be maintenance burned the same as ponderosa forests. Yeah, the indians did it, but that doesn't make it proper. About the only way for humans to safely mimic the natural fire cycle in these forests is to clearcut it. And I'm glad that you made the connection between the two. The main problem is that we tend to not allow the ecosystem to fully recover before clearcutting again. I also like the reference to a mosaic forest. Fires also wouldn't burn uniformly through the forest, like in riparian areas. It really takes alignment of the elements for fires to burn well in these forests, the natural cycle makes it a rare event, but demand for lumber makes disturbance a regular event.

I am not a tree hugger, and most certainly do not think that logging should be stopped entirely, I just think it needs to be done more consciously on public lands. Yeah, that means doing it more conservatively in the moist forests, but it needs to be done WAY more on the east slopes of the cascades before all the trees are killed by bugs or irregularly intense fires. (of course, logging on the east side should mimic the natural fire regime as well, meaning mostly thinning out) The main obstruction comes from undereducated environmental groups that think that ALL logging is bad. Then there's a reluctance from logging companies to take on a less profitable sale. But, it's happening.

I guess to sum stuff up, I agree with what I think it was CaseyForest said about natural occurences becoming percieved as bad when they interrupt human life. Also, thanks to Smokey Bear people think all fire is bad, and thanks to environmental groups, people think all logging is bad. What needs to be realized is that things occur in a natural cycle. If what's happening is within the parameters of what occurs naturally, it's certainly not a tragedy. Nothing is permenant. People have a lot of resistance to this concept, especially in regards to the forest.

 

[ChuckinOhio]

He's a farce

The average American home uses 20 to 25 thousand Kwh of electrieity per year.

Al Whores palatial estate averages that in one month. Yeah, he's real concerned.

Public knowledge, look it up.

I got no problem with the man bringing attention to what some perceive as a real threat, but I do have a problem with those who do not practice what they preach. Around here that earns you a firm rap in the mouth.

Besides if the earth warms up enough, I wont have to cut wood, thereby decreasing emissions, and it will all balance out.


Chuck

 

[ChuckinOhio]

And another thing

Some but not all of the data that gets thrown around by panic mongers relies on measurements taken many many years ago. From 100 years and on back.

Now excuse me if I have a hard time believing that a firm conclusion can be arrived at from studying data that was collected by someone who thought that the earth was flat or here there be dragons.

I am supposed to believe that old Ezekiel didn't have enough sense not to pi$$ in his own drinking water, but he had a cold lock on meteorological measurement?

Not bashing anyone, just my .02opcorn:


Chuck

 

[charlesfarm]

Chuck's correct:

Al Gore's 20-room home and pool house devoured nearly 221,000 kilowatt-hours in 2006. Roughly 20 times more than the national average. He pays more for his energy every year than the average household takes home after taxes.

But ... Al and Tipper are making quite a sacrifice in the name of saving the planet. Unlike the majority of us global-warming causing Americans, Mr. Gore only has three homes: a 20-room, 8-bath, 10,000 square foot home in Nashville; A 4,000 square foot "shack" in Arlington, VA, and another home in Carthage, TN. Instead of using an SUV to promote his movie, Gore drove his hybrid Lexus back and forth from his homes to the airport where he was then shuttled around in a private jet from event to event.

I'll be the first to admit that life isn't fair -- the bell curve is very real. We all have strengths and weaknesses, there will always be rich and poor, smart and not-so. But, when somebody is out there spouting off their mouth about conservation and personal responsibility, they are nothing more than a pompous, babbling hypocrite if they are not doing as much or more than they are asking everybody else to do.

God bless,
Chris

 

[RIX]

All opinions on global warming aside, I would like to know how it is that these "scientists" know that 18000 years ago, or 1 million years ago what the temps were or the size of the ice caps then. We have what.... 3 or 4 thousand years or actual written documentation in human history. So some "scientist" looks at the oldest recorded temps and looks at a trend from then till now and says if we went backwards for a million years with these trend numbers we know what it was like then. Nobody know or has recorded if the atmosphere, temps, climate was the same then. I don't know how long temps have been recorded with any accuracy but not long enough to tell us that our planet is in great danger. Not that this pot needs to be stirred any more but just my thoughts.

 

[turnkey4099]

All opinions on global warming aside, I would like to know how it is that these "scientists" know that 18000 years ago, or 1 million years ago what the temps were or the size of the ice caps then. We have what.... 3 or 4 thousand years or actual written documentation in human history. So some "scientist" looks at the oldest recorded temps and looks at a trend from then till now and says if we went backwards for a million years with these trend numbers we know what it was like then. Nobody know or has recorded if the atmosphere, temps, climate was the same then. I don't know how long temps have been recorded with any accuracy but not long enough to tell us that our planet is in great danger. Not that this pot needs to be stirred any more but just my thoughts.

Can't speak to the temperature thing but there are accurate data of what the atmosphere was composed of back for over 100,000 years. Those measurements are made directly from gases trapped in ice cores drilled in Greenland and Antarctica. CO2 and Methane have increased greatly in the recent past. They do have ways of determining temperature back then also but I am not familiar with the process.

Harry K

 

[ChuckinOhio]

I think that they can estimate what the temperature may have been within a range by studying plants in the fossil record from different areas. There is sound evidence that supports some of the claims made about temperature differences between now and whenever, but it is also scientific fact that the earth goes through heating and cooling cycles all on its own. Are we helping things along? Maybe, maybe not.
All in all there is alot of hype, uninformed conclusions and pseudo science applied to this discussion amongst those who are supposedly in the know. Apply sound scientific principles to arrive at a conclusion, and I will pay heed.
Attempt to villify the US and turn a blind eye to an emerging country because it is not politically correct to belittle those less fortunate and I turn deaf as a post. a comprehensive WORLDWIDE plan may be just the thing to better our environment.

Chuck

 

[Canyon Angler]

Ya gotta love hypocrites like Al Gore...while he scolds everybody else about what kind of car to drive and what kind of house to live in and so on and so forth, he burns natural gas and electricity like they're going out of style.

Last year alone, in his Tennessee mansion alone, Al Gore burned more than $30,000 worth of natural gas and electricity!

So maybe the real cause of global warming ... is nothing more than all of Al Gore's hot air!

What a crock!

<http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/politics/2007/02/27/costello.gore.energy.use.wztv>

 

[turnkey4099]

I think that they can estimate what the temperature may have been within a range by studying plants in the fossil record from different areas. There is sound evidence that supports some of the claims made about temperature differences between now and whenever, but it is also scientific fact that the earth goes through heating and cooling cycles all on its own. Are we helping things along? Maybe, maybe not.
<snip>
Chuck

And there is where the discussion should reside. Not 'Is man causing it?' but rather 'How much is man contributing to a natural cycle?"

With the plain evidence of ice disappearing worldwide there can be no denial that GW _is_ happening. IMO, man is augmenting a natural cycle and it already has gone past anything we can do to stop it. Not that we could stop a natural cycle in any case.

Harry K

 

[mikeotter]

Al Gores' Zink mine

Al Gore is a turd...No 2 ways about it. Global warming isn't a crock though. Even if it was, what's wrong with efficiency? Wood gasification boilers burn cleaner and longer with the same amount of wood.They burn ALL the creosote and smoke as fuel. My CF light bulbs (thanks Tesla) use 4-5 times less electricity than Edisons best incandescent. Led flashlights are getting better to the point that maybe we'll have LED lighting in houses someday. If they made a battery operated chainsaw with the same balls my 046 has that weighed the same or less I'd jump on it. I'd love not having to jerk a rope at 75+ feet in the air. Al Gore has a ZINK MINE in his back yard. What about the HUGE MONSTER Yellowstone Vulcano that is over due to pop...??? I burn wood...What the heck is wrong with it? Insulate,turn lights off,use efficient stuff,and try not to needlessly waste if your worried. I try to do these things because I think our kids will be the ones paying for it..... Al Gore could produce less CO2 if he'd hurry up and stop breathing.

 

[mikeotter]

Oh Yes

I had a buddy that worked at the McMurdo Lab in Antarctica that told me they pulled acorns and pine needles through 2 miles of ice...

 

[antigrassguy]

RIX, here is a brief explanation from the Greenland Ice Sheet Drilling Project on what scientists look for in ice to determine worldly events such as natural events, man-made events and outer space events.

http://www.gisp2.sr.unh.edu/GISP2/MoreInfo/Ice_Cores_Past.html

What is interesting is that the ice cores in Antarctica and Greenland had the same readings that go back 150,000 years. The folks in Antarctica were able to go back 800,000 plus years. Here some of what they found as reported by the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4467420.stm