Green Ash dilemma - take it down or not?

[Jim Timber]

This tree is in my back yard and has always troubled me since building my shop in it's projected line of fire should it decide it doesn't want to stay standing. We have 3 other large green ashes, so removal wouldn't make an impact in a negative way. The problem with removal is there's no way to get any machinery back there, so I'd be chunking it out in tiny pieces. "When in doubt, there is no doubt" comes to mind and my gut says get cutting. My real question is whether or not I'm off base with my assessment of this power-line mutilated beast.

The root ball has remained stable for the past 10 years or so, but I don't remember it being as pronounced early on. Our "lovely" old couple across the fence is fond of tilling their whole back yard for an annual garden, so I do question the integrity of the roots. I haven't measured DBH, but I think it's around 30". None of the other trees have a bulge at their base, this one is on the downhill side and roughly 8" from grade to the flare.

Sunday we had storms and had a piece about the same size as this come down. I think the middle-top of the tree broke off and what remains is half. I need to get this down before it lands on my wife or kid while they're mowing. The other central branches were already dead anyway.

The left leaning large limb is actively growing. It was cut back by the power crew a couple years ago, and sent up at least a dozen new branch sprouts. I have no doubt the tree is relatively healthy given the abuse it's endured. There's no evidence of rot at the crotch on that large branch either.

Here you can see there's more dead branches up in the canopy since this tree is competing with the other 3 for the same space.

Lastly, this is a perspective shot on the angle of lean. The "bat" (really a squirrel) house is very close to vertical. The power pole view is a little misleading in this shot.

So, what would an arborist do if it was theirs? Would you remove it given the potential damage to the shop outweighs the benefits of leaving it?

I know I need to clean up the break so it can heal if it's going to, and I should really clean out the dead stuff before it falls. I'm just torn on whether or not to gaff up it with a flip line and get chopping vs trying to set a rope and climb high enough to work it.

 

[ATH]

Couple of thoughts:
1) Have you been treating it for EAB? If not...do you want to invest that money into it? If "no", then you might as well start cutting.
2) Ask the utility company if they'll remove it next time they are doing that circuit - or at least top if out making it easier for you to remove. They probably won't if it isn't threatening their line, but it is worth asking.

 

[Jim Timber]

EAB is certainly a real problem, but we haven't gotten signs of it yet. One benefit of removal would be opening the spot for another species to start gaining ground for EAB if it takes out the others.

Power company refused the last time they were out, and I think they're going to be occupied for some time to come due to the regional damage from Sunday. There were still outtages the last I heard, and we had more weather last night with more to come in the days ahead.

 

[Marshy]

My local utility contracted tree trimming this spring. They went around the county and cut every single ash from the right of way. They even got permission from land owners to cut ash that was out of the right of way but leaning towards the lines. I believe they are trying to get ahead of the EAB. I'm following suit and cutting all that is on my property as well. Call your utility and tell them the trees health is questionable, it's in the right of way and they should consider removing it. They will at least have and arborist come assess the health. If it's a threat to the line they will take it down.

 

[Jim Timber]

It's not a threat to the line, it's a threat to my shop because they've sculpted it away from their lines for it's whole life.

 

[coryj]

It's not a threat to the line, it's a threat to my shop because they've sculpted it away from their lines for it's whole life.

I have the same problem on my property here in Virginia that I just bought in December, although nothing threatening the house or buildings. The company that does right of way work has cut out entire tree tops and whole sides of trees. It's a mess. I did convince them to take down one tree far enough that it wasn't a threat to the lines so I could drop it. They agreed after I gave them written permission and agreed that their ground crew didn't have to clean up anything from that tree.

 

[Jim Timber]

Up North at our property, the power company will drop anything you mark that's remotely capable of hurting their lines and they're gracious and expedient about it. Mark the tree, call their CS, they give you a ETA window, and next thing you know the tree is down. We have to deal with the stump stem, but that's not a problem for me (or most of us on this site). If you drop one into their lines without calling them, you get to pay for the outage (hope you have good insurance! ).

Down here, they came out and looked at it, said it wasn't a threat to their lines and that was the end of it. That's why I don't hold much hope now. The broken top is clearly not going to get hooked if it lets go, so I'd only irritate them by calling them out given the volume of "real" work that needs doing.

With my extension ladder, I might be able to get a throw line up into a good crotch and at least be able to get closer to the top to throw from aloft. I just don't like using ladders around power lines either. Knowing how far an arc can jump seems to prevent me from risking it.

 

[Jim Timber]

The Mrs. says take 'er down.

Looks like I've got some gaff time coming.

 

[ropensaddle]

The Mrs. says take 'er down.

Looks like I've got some gaff time coming.

Notify your power company explain that you are going to take this tree down and that some of the tree is closer than minimum separation for a non qualified line clearance climber. If you do I expect they will send out a crew pretty dang fast! Note it appears you have open wire secondary's as well under the tree. You better rethink this and call them ! You could even have the wife call acting concerned saying my husband has a wild look on his face and is saying he is going to climb and remove this tree and the wires are close etc.

 

[Jim Timber]

You're talking about the 3 low wires to the shop?

Not even close to this tree - that's the house mains and they pass through the other ash on our rear lot line.

I'll see if I can get their attention.

 

[bikemike]

EAB is certainly a real problem, but we haven't gotten signs of it yet. One benefit of removal would be opening the spot for another species to start gaining ground for EAB if it takes out the others.

Power company refused the last time they were out, and I think they're going to be occupied for some time to come due to the regional damage from Sunday. There were still outtages the last I heard, and we had more weather last night with more to come in the days ahead.

Hey buddy I'm from mn too. The ash is getting to be very problematic here. They are getting killed off by so many things now. Not just the eab. May want to take it down and rid yourself of a future problem before the tree is unhealthy and rotting out. This year we have removed more ash than we have buck thorn.

 

[ropensaddle]

Hey buddy I'm from mn too. The ash is getting to be very problematic here. They are getting killed off by so many things now. Not just the eab. May want to take it down and rid yourself of a future problem before the tree is unhealthy and rotting out. This year we have removed more ash than we have buck thorn.

You know all the ash hysteria over a bug is a shame. I do realize its killed a lot of them off I just wonder if the chainsaw gangs have wiped the rest out premature and the bug took blame ?

 

[Jim Timber]

I know you're from MN, Mike. I lived in IGH for almost 2 years. I'm well aware of where Cottage Grove is.

4 of our 5 suburban trees are very mature green ash. Two of them provide shade for the house, and two are just there. The one in question is in bad form because of the proximity to the lot line and power lines.

If EAB was to show up here (haven't seen it yet), I'd be in favor of treating the remaining 3 trees. I hope to not be living here that much longer, but some stuff needs to change before I can move so my departure timeframe is yet to be known.

 

[ropensaddle]

You're talking about the 3 low wires to the shop?

Not even close to this tree - that's the house mains and they pass through the other ash on our rear lot line.

I'll see if I can get their attention.

Yes those 3 are open secondary's easy to get together one limb brushes them and poof 4 of July comes early! Also there looks to be overhang on the 3 phase which is usually 12500 volts or 12.5 kv in other words enough to kill a full grown elephant! even the secondary's can kill a human fast!

 

[ropensaddle]

Yes those 3 are open secondary's easy to get together one limb brushes them and poof 4 of July comes early! Also there looks to be overhang on the 3 phase which is usually 12500 volts or 12.5 kv in other words enough to kill a full grown elephant! even the secondary's can kill a human fast!

Note: it might be 2 phase how many wires are up top on the cross arm ? either way still plenty current

 

[Jim Timber]

It's single phase (there's only 1 & 3 phase electrical distribution standards). The 3 wires to my shop are insulated and 120v each leg (w/neutral on top - I built that building and wired the mast/meter socket, and was present when they connected it), the pole-to-pole lines are 13Kv if memory serves. We're the first service off the transformer/ closest load. I joke I can brown out my neighbors when I fire up my big welder.

Just got off the phone with a CS lady who didn't know how to respond to me, but part of that was because she asked the question in an odd way. They won't do pole to home trees, but they will drop the lines so you can do it yourself (or hire it done), and they will do pole-to-pole trees depending on what their crews determine after an on-site. She asked if the tree was between the lines and my house - yes, it's between their line and my house. lol But what she should've asked was what lines the tree endangered, as those are pole to pole.

I was very clear the tree has a severe lean and is malformed from their pruning due to the proximity of their lines, and opened our conversation with that point.

They're booked out a month right now, but I'm on the list for scheduling.

 

[ropensaddle]

It's single phase (there's only 1 & 3 phase electrical distribution standards). The 3 wires to my shop are insulated and 120v each leg (w/neutral on top - I built that building and wired the mast/meter socket, and was present when they connected it), the pole-to-pole lines are 13Kv if memory serves. We're the first service off the transformer/ closest load. I joke I can brown out my neighbors when I fire up my big welder.

Just got off the phone with a CS lady who didn't know how to respond to me, but part of that was because she asked the question in an odd way. They won't do pole to home trees, but they will drop the lines so you can do it yourself (or hire it done), and they will do pole-to-pole trees depending on what their crews determine after an on-site. She asked if the tree was between the lines and my house - yes, it's between their line and my house. lol But what she should've asked was what lines the tree endangered, as those are pole to pole.

I was very clear the tree has a severe lean and is malformed from their pruning due to the proximity of their lines, and opened our conversation with that point.

They're booked out a month right now, but I'm on the list for scheduling.

Yup let them do enough to clear those mains otherwise it could cost you $ or worse if you get my meaning! They just might put it on the ground if you accept clean-up! The cross arm is normally 3 or 2 phase not sure why they would use up a cross arm for a single unless they were adjusting the phase for sag or to move it over for some purpose! I assumed seeing the cross arm until looking closer and not seeing other wires! Btw single phase is 7200 volt or 7.2 kv normally still enough to kill full grown elephant

 

[Jim Timber]

Our service is single phase. The closest 3ph is 1/8 mile away and would've cost well over $10K to bring in or I would've done it. Instead, I went with variable frequency drives on all my machines; which was fortuitous because we're too far away from 3ph up North as well, so I'm ready for the relocation plug-n-play there now.

Pole to pole single phase distribution has one leg hot across the top and that wire is uninsulated (might not even be in the pics due to angle), those are connected to the single input tap on a step-down transformer which then makes 2 legs of single phase that are 180 degrees out from each other, and those lines are then run to the service run along with a central tap which becomes the neutral/return leg.

So from the top down on our utility poles you have:

High voltage uninsulated - single wire 13Kv (or thereabouts)

5ft lower you have the neutral, and two 120v legs of 240, which are insulated

2ft below that you have the phone/cable/internet bundles.

The low voltage signal wires are about 12' up from ground level.


13Kv is enough to make refried beans out of the burrito you ate for lunch! I'm well aware of the dangers should something hit it.

I also don't envision this take-down as getting into that line, but if I can get them to do it and not expose myself to the risk at all, that is the path we'll take. I can watch them remove it and maybe learn some things. That's win-win for me.

 

[ATH]

You know all the ash hysteria over a bug is a shame. I do realize its killed a lot of them off I just wonder if the chainsaw gangs have wiped the rest out premature and the bug took blame ?

EAB doesn't leave anything. I have walked a LOT of woodlands around NW Ohio where ash is a major component. There are no ash left (on a very rare occasion I'll find a 10-12" dbh tree that isn't great yet...but they still have sign of infestation. Treatment of yard trees is a viable option...start early if you want it to work!

 

[Jim Timber]

From what I've read, the borers do most damage to mature/older trees. Certain younger trees have been found to escape the infestation so it's not like Dutch Elm where it wipes out everything. In a mature stand/area (like my neighborhood), it's certainly capable of severe impact.

I forget how young the trees needed to be for them to be undesirable, but want to say it was like <10dbh. Our smallest tree is about 15", so all 4 of them are prime targets if/when the borers show up. The metro is a quarantine area for ash wood, but I haven't heard much about infestations. Maybe I'm just not aware of them.

My land up North where we're moving has several black ash in the low area, but those will be harvested to the fullest extent possible when the sale is executed. Oak wilt and tent caterpillars will remain as my biggest fear there.