help with large homemade splitter!

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jewelerjake

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So...here we go again with a log splitter thread. sorry. here's the problem. the splitter is a large guillotine style that I picked up at a local estate sale. I paid $50 because no one wanted to move it. it is 10' tall, 5.5' wide, and has a 4'x2'tall blade made out of 2" thick plate steel. it is run by 2 hydraulic cylinders. they are 4" x 40" each. The splitter came with a Vickers vane pump , but no motor. I want to use my bolens h16 to power it. 16hp motor, 3600 rpm using front pto. I hooked it all up, ran well but the cycle time was pretty slow. it cut through softwood fine, but the pump stalled when I tried to split oak. the motor never bogged at all, the pump just stalled. never having set up a splitter before, I don't know what to do. thanks for any input.
 
Jake, sorry no one has responded. These guys like pictures, especially of something as unique as you are describing. Post some pictures and I bet you will get all kinds of advice. You might also add your location to your avatar that could help also.
 
I second what @muddstopper said about the relief setting. Also, two rams that large is likely overkill. If you could run one ram then the cycle time would double but doesn't sound like an option from the way you described how it's built. Larger rams mean more force but longer cycle times.
 
What size is your vickers vane pump. 2/ 4in bore cyls is similar to having one 6in bore cyl, so I would think you should have pretty good splitting force available. I would want to know what the relief setting was before doing anything else. If you dont have or cant borrow a gauge, you can adjust the relief by feel. Simply start screwing the relief in until the engine stalls and then back the relief up until the engine boggs but doesnt stall. If screwing in the relief all the way doesnt stall your engine, it could be that pump flow is so low or pump cant produce enough pressure to overcome your hp. At anyrate, the pump should produce enough pressure to split about anything and if it wont, I would start shopping for a 22gpm two stage pump to put on the splitter.
 
As others have said, it is going to be slow but should have great power. If you went with a 28 GPM pump it would be faster but you'd need a bigger motor and you'd probably start having heat issues as I'm assuming lines are small and valve would be restrictive. It's a catch 22 if you will. One thing that is a long shot, but have seen it happen. Check your valve. Had a buddy that had the same symptoms and went over to look at it and found this. The straps that allow the pivot of the hand lever had worked loose and they were worn. Wouldn't allow the valve to fully open. New straps and screws and it started working for him.

Another thing not mentioned. Depending on the temp outside when you tried it will effect your speed as well in the beginning. Colder temps will mean the fluid is "thicker" till it gets to operating temps. In a 1/2 hour you should be good to go but thought I'd throw that out there as well.
 
I wouldn't rule out the health of the pump either. It's not the first thing to check but something you should be thinking about later is nothing else seems to be working.
 
You pump should have numbers, similar to these, (F3) - 20VQ - F - 5 - A - S - 1 - C - 2 - K - 30 - L, stamped somewhere on the pump. These numbers will tell you a few things about the pump. The f3 in this number just indicates vitron seals and your pump may or may not have that number. The 20vq is the model of the pump. The number 2 , which is the 9th number in the list, represents the flow rate, 2gpm. The next number/letter in this examble is a K and this is the recommended relief setting. K represents 2500psi. These recommendations usually go up about 250psi for the next letter in the alphabet. A being 250psi, B is 500psi and so on. Look for the numbers on your pump and post them and we might be able to tell you what you are working with.
 
You pump should have numbers, similar to these, (F3) - 20VQ - F - 5 - A - S - 1 - C - 2 - K - 30 - L, stamped somewhere on the pump. These numbers will tell you a few things about the pump. The f3 in this number just indicates vitron seals and your pump may or may not have that number. The 20vq is the model of the pump. The number 2 , which is the 9th number in the list, represents the flow rate, 2gpm. The next number/letter in this examble is a K and this is the recommended relief setting. K represents 2500psi. These recommendations usually go up about 250psi for the next letter in the alphabet. A being 250psi, B is 500psi and so on. Look for the numbers on your pump and post them and we might be able to tell you what you are working with.
Appreciate the info guys. I will check the numbers when I get home. You guys sure know a lot about wood splitters.
 
How can the pump stall but not the motor? Aren't they directly connected?

Or do you mean the cylinders stall?

That's a monster.
 
How can the pump stall but not the motor? Aren't they directly connected?

Or do you mean the cylinders stall?

That's a monster.

I think he means the cylinder will just not move anymore.

Another thing to check is if the just used a set screw on one of the connections instead of a key. Another long shot, but could just be spinning there.
 
How can the pump stall but not the motor? Aren't they directly connected?

Or do you mean the cylinders stall?

That's a monster.
The engine can only produce a set amount of hp and when the limit is met, the engine will stall. There are several different sets of circumstances when the hyd system will stall, but not stall the engine. For one, if the relief valve on splitter is set so low that all excess pressure is being bypassed over the relief, the engine would just keep chugging alone and the pump will just keep pumping oil and making heat as a byproduct of the oil flowing over the relief. That to me would be the obvious first thing to look at and check. The relief could be set to low, or simply be stuck allowing oil to bypass. Another problems could be as Kevin suggested, the coupling between the pump and the engine could be slipping. I have seen that happen a few times. After those two simple fixes, things can get a lot more complicated. Some of those vane pumps have a built in relief. All the vane pumps work by spinning fast enough to sling the vanes outwards to wipe oil from a oblong shaped bore inside the pump. These vanes can wear out and the bore can also wear out, which would let oil bypass internally and reduce the amount of oil produced, pressure as well as flow rates.

In any case, you cant properly check the problem without having a pressure gauge installed. I believe every vickers vane pump I have ever worked on had replacement vanes and cyl kits to rebuild the pump. Very simple rebuild, just remove the cap off the end of the pump, slip out the vane assemble and slip in the new one and bolt the cap back on. Just dont let the little vanes fall out and a caveman can do it. Of course if your going to go so far as to replace the vane assembly, might as well remove the pump shaft and put in new seals and bushings/bearings and you have a brand new pump.

Cost would be the big factor and if the problems with this splitter is the pump, I wouldnt even consider rebuilding the vane pump. I would buy a new 22gpm 2 stage pump and bolt it on. I suggest the 22gpm pump because his engine is a 16hp, and a 28gpm two stage is pushing the engine limits. Altho with his two 4in bore cyl, it is possible his splitter might not ever see the pressures that would stall his engine. He would see a increase in speed over the single stage vane pump as a added benefit.

Another thing to check on is whether or not the vane pump he has is rated to turn the 3600rpms he said he was running his engine. Most of the smaller vickers pumps are usually recommended to run at 2500rpms or less. Spinning them faster will produce a little bit more flow, but at great cost to the pump internals as well as the excess heat produced.

Edited to add, One more possible problem that hasnt been discussed. His splitter has two cyl. It is also very possible that one of those cyl could be bad allowing oil to bypass the piston seals. If only one cyl is bad, since the cyl are connected, oil would flow from both cyl around that bad seal and flow back thru the control valve back to tank. After checking the relief valve, and maybe even before looking at the relief, I would disconnect one cyl and plug it off and just see if the system could build pressure, using only one cyl. I would do this with both cyl, checking one at a time. Also make sure you remove the pin on the rod end of the cyl that you remove the hoses from, otherwise if left connected to the blade, the working cyl will push/pull the rod on the disconnected cyl, and squirt oil all over the place. You cant just plug the ports on the unused cyl, because it if is left connected to the blade, the rod has to travel in and out as the blade is raised and lowered. Pull pin and cap hoses or deal with a mess.
 
Unless you have some sort of equalizer valve set up, one cyl. or the other is doing all the work, they will never both work with equal pressure. If no one believes this look at grapple fingers plumbed that way one or the other is always moving untill one is full open or bottomed out then the other kicks in, loader bucket the same way. You gain nothing on a double cyl. till one or the other bottoms out and the other takes all the pressure. Looks impressive but does nothing !!
 
Unless you have some sort of equalizer valve set up, one cyl. or the other is doing all the work, they will never both work with equal pressure. If no one believes this look at grapple fingers plumbed that way one or the other is always moving untill one is full open or bottomed out then the other kicks in, loader bucket the same way. You gain nothing on a double cyl. till one or the other bottoms out and the other takes all the pressure. Looks impressive but does nothing !!

I may have missed something but in all my years of dealing with loaders on tarctors and contruction equipment. I've not noticed anything as a equalizer. It goes to the least resistant force needed and when it's a dual cylinder they work together. Muddstopper, Have I missed it all these years?
 
I dont know what he is calling a equalizer, but he is right. With two cyl hooked parallel, the cyl with the least resistance will extend first. With a mechanical linkage, such as on his splitter, it is very possible for one cyl to extend faster than the other one and place that long knife in a seasawing, kanty corner bind as it travels up and down the slide. As pressure builds on the cyl that extends first, the pressure will equalize and the other cyl will extend. Basicly what he would have is a knife that is stepping down side to side as one side or the other hits some sort of positive stop allowing the opposite side to build pressure. there are all kinds of valves to reduce this effect, but to do so you have to meter the flows as well as the pressures to each cyl., proportioning valves are one method. Another more common method is pressure-compensated flow controls. Pressure-compensated flow controls maintain a constant flow when load differences cause a change in pressure drop. I dont think I have even had to work on a tractor fel, so I havent paid any attention as to how the hyd are assembled on one. My best guess without going over to my brothers and looking at his loader, is that the lift cyl are connected by mechanical means in the design of the lift arms, but that is just my guess. My processors splitter also has two cyl pushing and pulling the pushplate. The mechanical connection between the cyl's is very close together so any seesawing of the cyl as they extend will be minimal. The distance between the op's cyl mounting points might cause some unnecessay binding issues, but in a bind, the cyl pressures should equalize and fully extend.
 

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About 5 years ago I worked with a splitter very similar to the one in your picture. Binding was an issue that was solved by mechanical means. It had two well lubed slide areas just like a cradle unit, but was standing straight up. The rounds we were working on were very tough so we needed 100,000 lbs of force to get the job done. It was common for a tractor to slide a 6' under the guillotine and pull the lever. Two guys in many cases could not move a large round without the tractor. Our unit had 4cyl diesel motor that was turbo charged. My guess would have been that it had 60HP plus. Cycle time was about the same as my cradle unit. It looks like your guillotine is more than you want. My suggestion would be to modify, trade or sell to get exactly what you can use. Thanks
 

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