I want to transfer wood stove heat to lower level of the house.
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KsWoodsMan
Addicted to ArboristSite
Don't forget to post back with pictures and let us know how it turns out for you. I think you get the idea I was trying to get across. About using convection to pull the colder air out , replacing it with warmer air, instead of trying to force warm air in there.
Aaron
Aaron
Don't forget to post back with pictures and let us know how it turns out for you. I think you get the idea I was trying to get across. About using convection to pull the colder air out , replacing it with warmer air, instead of trying to force warm air in there.
Aaron
Yep, cool weather is quickly approaching so I need to get started soon. I understand your explanation very well now, I just had to run it through my mind for a while and let it sink in.
logbutcher
Addicted to ArboristSite
Insulate the Hell Out of It
Au Contraire. :jawdrop: Insulation IS the answer here. It keeps the heat IN, not the cold out. It has a fast payback in cost and labor.
With -30 to -40 F winter temps insulate the hell out of that crawlspace: walls AND floor with at least R-30 thickness solid foam sheets. Say you have a 20' X 20' crawlspace, attach the foam to the sides and floor. Keep the wood stove heat in where you live, not in a foundation-----unless you want to heat dirt and concrete.
We built on a slab in a much warmer climate here in northern Maine.
Sometimes we'll get a week or so down to -20's, but normally not. The slab is sandwiched with 2" foam under, on top, on the sides. 6" in the walls, 12" under the roof, ALL spaces in the frame, windows, doors caulked and foamed to hell. It is worth the time and work---unless you like to burn more wood. :monkey:
Then again, if you want to play with reversing the Laws of Thermodynamics by pushing heat where it doesn't want to go, have fun. :greenchainsaw: The advice is from long experience....and worth what is costs.:agree2:
It will not be a waste of heat if I am also keeping the floors warmer. I wouldn't mind warmer floors when it is -30 to -50 degrees outside. If I was going to waste any heat it would definetly be the wood heat since it is way cheaper than fuel or electricity. Insulation alone is not going to take care of this problem, that is why I am looking for something more.
Au Contraire. :jawdrop: Insulation IS the answer here. It keeps the heat IN, not the cold out. It has a fast payback in cost and labor.
With -30 to -40 F winter temps insulate the hell out of that crawlspace: walls AND floor with at least R-30 thickness solid foam sheets. Say you have a 20' X 20' crawlspace, attach the foam to the sides and floor. Keep the wood stove heat in where you live, not in a foundation-----unless you want to heat dirt and concrete.
We built on a slab in a much warmer climate here in northern Maine.
Sometimes we'll get a week or so down to -20's, but normally not. The slab is sandwiched with 2" foam under, on top, on the sides. 6" in the walls, 12" under the roof, ALL spaces in the frame, windows, doors caulked and foamed to hell. It is worth the time and work---unless you like to burn more wood. :monkey:
Then again, if you want to play with reversing the Laws of Thermodynamics by pushing heat where it doesn't want to go, have fun. :greenchainsaw: The advice is from long experience....and worth what is costs.:agree2:
KsWoodsMan
Addicted to ArboristSite
Au Contraire. :jawdrop: Insulation IS the answer here. It keeps the heat IN, not the cold out. It has a fast payback in cost and labor.
With -30 to -40 F winter temps insulate the hell out of that crawlspace: walls AND floor with at least R-30 thickness solid foam sheets. Say you have a 20' X 20' crawlspace, attach the foam to the sides and floor. Keep the wood stove heat in where you live, not in a foundation-----unless you want to heat dirt and concrete.
We built on a slab in a much warmer climate here in northern Maine.
Sometimes we'll get a week or so down to -20's, but normally not. The slab is sandwiched with 2" foam under, on top, on the sides. 6" in the walls, 12" under the roof, ALL spaces in the frame, windows, doors caulked and foamed to hell. It is worth the time and work---unless you like to burn more wood. :monkey:
Then again, if you want to play with reversing the Laws of Thermodynamics by pushing heat where it doesn't want to go, have fun. :greenchainsaw: The advice is from long experience....and worth what is costs.:agree2:
How is insullation going to move the heat from upstairs where the wood stove is located, through his split level house, to the lower portion of his home ?
Is there some physical property about insulation that the rest of us arent arware of ? Besides that it slows heat loss ?
If you have cold air in part of the house, heat it ! Either heat it directly or indirectly but heat it ! Take the heater to the air or take the air to the heater but H-E-A-T it. Then let insulation do its part by keeping it. But it has to be heated for insulation to do its part too.
Insulation will slow the heat loss from his living area to the -50* outdoors but it isnt going to move cold air out of his lower level. And it isnt going to move warmer air into there either. It is a good idea to insulate your living space to retain heat but there has to be some heat there to start with.
I didn't care to ask why he wanted his crawlspace warmer. Maybe it has pipes in there he dosnt want frozen. Maybe he wants his floors to be warmer, Maybe the crawlspace is his winter retreat area from the sweet, loving, attentive, little lady of the house. What do I care what his reasons for this are. He asked how to get more in there , not how to keep from losing it.
He also expressed an interest in using his wood stove to heat more of his house, namely the lower level of his split level home. Split levels differ from 2 story homes. Both levels are used for living space. They just arent stacked on top of each other. I dont recall his first post mentioning what type of fuel he was using down stairs. It could have been electricity or propane or fuel oil or chicken feathers. I didn't care to ask. He just wanted to use less of whatever he was using to heat with. Actually it was that he wanted to use more of the wood heat for all of his house.
A cold air return from the lower level is needed to keep the coldest air from settling down there and stacking up. Warm air isnt going to go down there on it's own. It isnt going to stay there if it gets there forced either. Moving the cold air out will draw warmer air to that area. If it is pulled through his crawlspace back to the woodstove, this accomplishes both tasks Without the use of brute force to push air where it doesnt want to go.
(RANT)
I am such a moron to think, for even an instant, that since convection put that cold air down there that convection could also be used to draw it out. We need a BFI object of some type to force air into compliance with our wishes. Something to force warm air down instead of up. For BFI, a fan is perfect for this.
In my blithering ignorance how could I possibly attempt to accomplish 2 tasks at once without BFI. One task was to get the cold air out of down stairs so warmer air would want to go there. This makes better use of his woodstove and reduces the smell of burning chicken feathers. It might even save him some money by not having to buy quiote as much to use down there. The other was to move warm air to the crawlspace. Maybe so he didn't freeze to death on winter reteat while thawing the pipes under his house. Whatever his reasons were for both of these I offered one solution that addressed both of them directly. It didn't require any outside influence. It was simple, self priming, self starting and self sufficient. All that was needed was to apply heat, from behind his wood stove, to several feet of 4 inch or 6 inch single wall vent pipe. The heat used is to induce natural convection throughout the house. This creates a cold air return from downstairs to his woodstove.
(/RANT)
EDIT: Logbutcher, maybe your post wasn't in refference to me offering advice to use natural forces to his gain. I wasnt trying to push anything against it will. It wasn't pointed directly at my last post, it only followed it. I may have taken it to much to heart.
Just so I no one thinks I am against insulation. LoknLoad, once you have things set how you are going to get more heat down stairs from the upstairs wood stove dont forget to minimize your losses in the unheated crawlspace. No point in letting the cold air under your floors get any colder. Insulation is an effective way to minimize heat losses there. An extra measure of protection, in case you are away, is to add electric heat tape to the pipes for when you arent home to feed the wood eater. It wouldn't hurt to insulate the taped pipes with some wrap around foam pipe insulation made just for this.
All bases should be covered , your family should be toasty warm upstairs and downstairs this winter. your wallet might not feel the crunch so much from trying to force heat down, buying additional fuel to heat down stairs or frozen pipes in the crawlspace.
Confusion , mayhem and destruction, My work here is done.
logbutcher
Addicted to ArboristSite
By god we have ignition. :monkey: Is the query to heat a crawlspace or not ? What a treatise ! Whew. That is a 1/2 six-pack read.
Did the man want to heat an uninhabited crawlspace or not ? Will the Laws of Thermodynamnics be repealed here ?
Will that skin and bones and nada with the name of Hilton be elected dogcatcher ?You want to heat dirt, fine ; "push" convection where it don't want to go, fine by me; want to heat that mass of foundation with no living beings, fine. It is still a free country...even in AK with The Bridge to No-Where.
BUT: We dumbo hicks will still use insulation in construction the way it works= keep heat in. Repeat: insulation only operates to keep heat in from a source of heat. And though this is the internet, judge the info by your brain and in the real world. N.J.M.N.S.H.O.
Jkebxjunke
*Politically Incorrect*
and if i remember correctly he wants to spray the walls of the crawlspace with foam but its not in his budget right now... some times we have to make due with what we can afford right now.... and putting heat in the crawlspace to keep the pipes from freezing to avoid having to thaw them out and lay in water and muck to fix them while its - something below zero seems like a very miserable job to me... and the side benefit of warmer floors is a plus... ( and it prolly will make the mrs happy too. remember .. if she aint happy .. nobody's happy . and maybe the saving from not having to burn as much oil gas electric or chicken feathers will help for paying for foam next year.
KsWoodsMan
Addicted to ArboristSite
I knew the chicken feathers comment was going to haunt me. I just wanted the guy and his family to be able to enjoy all of their house year round.
I know he'll enjoy it more if he's warm, isnt paying quite as much for heat or listening to a duct fan running day and night.
I know he'll enjoy it more if he's warm, isnt paying quite as much for heat or listening to a duct fan running day and night.
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Jkebxjunke
*Politically Incorrect*
Well The chicken feather comment struck me funny since I am a chicken farmer... LOL ( 124,000 broilers)
KsWoodsMan
Addicted to ArboristSite
Well The chicken feather comment struck me funny since I am a chicken farmer... LOL ( 124,000 broilers)
I dont know how long I cold get away with that big of an operation here. "The City" just passed an ordinance that you can only have upto 3 poultry, no more then 8 weeks old inside the city limits. I wonder if I could get away with 10,000 pull-its and 3 brooder hens ?
I guess if I want more poultry meat than chickens or gueneas (sp) I better start with bigger hens. Something the size of a goose or perhaps a few turkeys. Eh, why stop there I know of an emu ranch not to far away (drifting off, smiling, as I aggreivate the city officials beyong speakable words.)
Now, I'm hungry for pecan and apple smoked drumsticks. Whats bigger than an Emu ? Roast game hen just isn't going to cut it for me now.
Anybody had any luck getting feathers to stay glued to a pig? Since we can't have even one of those now.
OK , I'm back again. I think we had a lot of good answers here. I don't know if any one of them was the only single answer to the problem. Each has it's own merits. When he gets to all of them plus his unending Hunnydew list his family should be warm and dry as long as his woodpile holds out.
Guys have a great evening I only have till 9:59 PM here ( 20 more minutes ) that I can run my saws and there has to be something out that that needs trimmed, again.
mranum
ArboristSite Operative
Maybe this will help
http://www.nueskes.com/products/poultry/Smoked_Whole_Chickens.cfm
http://www.nueskes.com/products/Poultry.cfm
Nueskes meats are the best smoked meat I ever had.
Good thing I occasionally work very close to them.
KsWoodsMan
Addicted to ArboristSite
Maybe this will help
http://www.nueskes.com/products/poultry/Smoked_Whole_Chickens.cfm
http://www.nueskes.com/products/Poultry.cfm
Nueskes meats are the best smoked meat I ever had.
That didn't help. Looked real good ! :drool: But it didn't help one bit.
I was thinking of a big , juicy drumstick fit for Fred after a long day at the gravel pit.
By god we have ignition. :monkey: Is the query to heat a crawlspace or not ? What a treatise ! Whew. That is a 1/2 six-pack read.
Did the man want to heat an uninhabited crawlspace or not ? Will the Laws of Thermodynamnics be repealed here ?
You want to heat dirt, fine ; "push" convection where it don't want to go, fine by me; want to heat that mass of foundation with no living beings, fine. It is still a free country...even in AK with The Bridge to No-Where.
BUT: We dumbo hicks will still use insulation in construction the way it works= keep heat in. Repeat: insulation only operates to keep heat in from a source of heat. And though this is the internet, judge the info by your brain and in the real world. N.J.M.N.S.H.O.
Ok, I am not sure where I didn't explain close enough but here goes. I plan to spray insulate the entire crawl space but it most likely will not get done before this winter. There is a little more to it than "I'm lazy and don't feel like doing it right now" or "I want to heat wasted space that is basically dirt and unhabited". When I do insulate, it will be done correctly and will last the life of the house (it will be expensive also) so it may not get done right now. Using insulation to keep heat in is fine, but right now there is no heat source in that crawlspace......So as the frost pushes down further and further during the winter, the crawl space tends to get cooler and cooler. I just plan to combat that by adding some wood stove heat down there temporarily. The stove is more than capable, even at -50 degrees outside air temp.
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RatchetJaw
ArboristSite Lurker
A simple tested solution with drawbacks.
I have run into much of the same issues in the past my solution was a 4 in squirrel cage fan mounted on top of a piece of 4 inch PVC pipe just drilled a 3 inch hole in the pipe cap and mounted the fan to it it sucked the warm air off of the roof and worked great for getting the lower regions of the house warmed up there is a drawback though if the area is real tight to air leakage you will run into moisture problems due to condensations in the cooler area as its heating up much like a glass of ice water .
I have run into much of the same issues in the past my solution was a 4 in squirrel cage fan mounted on top of a piece of 4 inch PVC pipe just drilled a 3 inch hole in the pipe cap and mounted the fan to it it sucked the warm air off of the roof and worked great for getting the lower regions of the house warmed up there is a drawback though if the area is real tight to air leakage you will run into moisture problems due to condensations in the cooler area as its heating up much like a glass of ice water .
sdt7618
ArboristSite Guru
Idea?
Simple and free to run soln for the pipes, insulate them with pipe insulation but run a trace heating wire along them, fit a small solar panal, to 12v battery! Inital cost yes running cost no!
Simple and free to run soln for the pipes, insulate them with pipe insulation but run a trace heating wire along them, fit a small solar panal, to 12v battery! Inital cost yes running cost no!
Doug Furr
New Member
convection
I am also trying to heat the lower level of my house with my upstairs wood stove. The lower level is an insulated living space. I like the idea of using convection to circulate the heat. I've got a couple of questions:
I will need a fairly long run of pipe with several bends in it to get it from the wood stove to the lower level. Will this still work??
How high up do I need to run the pipe behind the stove?? Just below the ceiling or will the top of the stove suffice? It seems hotter at the top of the stove than further up.
What kind of pipe do I need??
Will the difference in lower level temps be noticeable??
Thanks!
I am also trying to heat the lower level of my house with my upstairs wood stove. The lower level is an insulated living space. I like the idea of using convection to circulate the heat. I've got a couple of questions:
I will need a fairly long run of pipe with several bends in it to get it from the wood stove to the lower level. Will this still work??
How high up do I need to run the pipe behind the stove?? Just below the ceiling or will the top of the stove suffice? It seems hotter at the top of the stove than further up.
What kind of pipe do I need??
Will the difference in lower level temps be noticeable??
Thanks!
Wow, did this thread ever come back at the right time! I was about to ask another similar question.
I did install the set up for natural convection but I am not having very good luck with it. The easiest way to explain what I did is that one end of the tube is at the lowest (coldest) area of the room (crawlspace) and the other end is at the highest point of the warmest room (approx. 8" from the ceiling where the wood stove stack goes out).
I have no doubt that some air movement is occuring but it doesn't seem like it is changing the crawlspace temp. very much. My wood stove has been fired up for days and the crawlspace temp. right now is 50 degrees. I ran a 4 inch pipe for my installation, FYI.
If you have any more questions about my set up, just ask.
My question. If any of you were in this situation, would you move the hot air to the cold space or move the cold air to the hot space? Also, I would like to know why. (So the wife and I can argue about it some more
)
I did install the set up for natural convection but I am not having very good luck with it. The easiest way to explain what I did is that one end of the tube is at the lowest (coldest) area of the room (crawlspace) and the other end is at the highest point of the warmest room (approx. 8" from the ceiling where the wood stove stack goes out).
I have no doubt that some air movement is occuring but it doesn't seem like it is changing the crawlspace temp. very much. My wood stove has been fired up for days and the crawlspace temp. right now is 50 degrees. I ran a 4 inch pipe for my installation, FYI.
If you have any more questions about my set up, just ask.
My question. If any of you were in this situation, would you move the hot air to the cold space or move the cold air to the hot space? Also, I would like to know why. (So the wife and I can argue about it some more
)
Gee, it didn't work? What a surprise! Warm air won't go down on it's own after all.
Gee, you get an "F" for not paying attention. (No sense in spewing garbage that doesn't help.)
No one was trying to have warm air go down on its own. Heating the upper area of the pipe would make that air rise. Air from down lower (the crawlspace cold air) would enter the pipe and be gradually warmed until it exited the top of the pipe.
As mentioned before, air movement is occuring but not enough to warm up this much space.
I was hoping your reply was something constructive that might add to the topic at hand.
No one was trying to have warm air go down on its own. Heating the upper area of the pipe would make that air rise. Air from down lower (the crawlspace cold air) would enter the pipe and be gradually warmed until it exited the top of the pipe.
As mentioned before, air movement is occuring but not enough to warm up this much space.
I was hoping your reply was something constructive that might add to the topic at hand.
It was, on the first page of this thread. If you want warm air down there for warm floors, you'll have to force it to go there. Physics 101. Otherwise, because it's an unused crawlspace, insulate the floor from below, let the rest sit as 'dead air' space.
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