Installing a new heating system from scratch, OWB vs wood furnace?

[merr6267]

Hi all,
New to posting, been lurking for a few months. Anyway, I'll comment on your worries about pumping your boiler water 200ft. Keep in mind that you are not really "pumping", but rather circulating water. The water is not being forced through an orifice, and there is no need to develop pressure, just to move the water along at a rate that will support your heat transfer needs. As long as all air is out of the loop, there is a rising and falling effect, that all but erases the trouble with elevation change too. While the circulator is "pushing" water up hill to the barn, the cold side is effectively "pulling" the water downhill on the other side. Obviously, you would prefer to minimize the restrictions and bends, but there is not too much lost in a system like that. My circulator only pulls .9 amps if I remember correctly (108 watts, basically a lightbulb)

Now, I may eat my words after this winter, as I just got my OWB installed at the end of October but I did work for a manufacturer who basically said the same thing to me. I have 185 feet from the boiler into my house, and then another 85 (x2) feet of uninsulated pex within the garage and house. I'm feeding 2 100k BTU exchangers (one in the Central heat system, and one of them in the workshop part of the garage where the dog stays during the day).

I'm burning about 10 armfuls of hard wood a day (~35° lately).

I'm far form efficient at this point with a good chunk of the garage PEX uninsulated, but I'll address that now that things have settled a bit.

If you get good insulated underground line, you won't lose too much underground either. I'm using the type that the PEX is wrapped with foil faced plastic 4 times.

Take care,
Phill

 

[jh35]

After burning wood in my basement add-on for 12 years as my primary source, I installed a OWB. Been running three weeks now. Much much easier. I turned off the propane to the DHW also. No smoke or mess in the house. All kinds of really hot water and no chance of burning the house down. Wood splitting won't take as much of my time anymore either. I feel a big relief and get a smile when I look out the house at it 85' away.

Jeff

 

[Fyrebug]

After burning wood in my basement add-on for 12 years as my primary source, I installed a OWB. Been running three weeks now. Much much easier. I turned off the propane to the DHW also. No smoke or mess in the house. All kinds of really hot water and no chance of burning the house down. Wood splitting won't take as much of my time anymore either. I feel a big relief and get a smile when I look out the house at it 85' away.

Jeff

Understood but the old wood furnaces have nothing in common with the new high-efficiency ones.

Because they reburn the smoke and are highly efficient you can reduce your wood usage by at least a 1/3rd and typically more. Longer burn times are also one of the benefits.

 

[Butch(OH)]

+ The downside with OWB and such a large burn chamber users soon get lazy and the temptation is to cram it with big and/or wet logs, garbage, tires, recently deceased mother in law etc... therefore losing all the advantage of high efficiency not to mention smoking out the neighbourhood.

.

So you know, studies in the field have shown that only the forced draft model OWBs are effective at cremation :msp_tongue:

It seems to be a little discussed fact in the cyber world that green wood, garbage, trash and cut up pieces of M-I-Ls get thrown into wood burners of all types. Why they even get pitched into EPA approved stoves that have approved warning stickers telling them not to do it ??!!?? :msp_ohmy::msp_ohmy:

 

[iowa]

Here's my thinking...

I'm not sure what your budget is.. With that said.. I've seen and know a lot of guys who have outdoor wood burners piping in hot water. They like them and the mess and chance of burning your house down is not there. However, here are a few things that I've heard about them that I don't like. 1. High cost to put in 12-15k total 2. Inefficient (guys are burning a crap load of wood to keep house shop warm. 3. Loading the OWB in cold weather, rain, snow, sleet. etc. 4. OWB generally take large amounts of wood to load and large splits. Can your wife load 200lbs of wood in that thing if you are gone, hurt, etc?? 5. They don't burn clean. Are you in a neighborhood where people might get upset with the smell and constant smoke billowing out? 6. Loss of heat through water pipes and length going to and from house.

I am currently installing a Kuuma Vaporfire 100 in my basement. I've been buring wood for 5 yrs now and have had a forced air wood furnace in my basement. I like keeping the heat indoors! With the new Kuuma I'm hoping for a more efficient furnace, cleaner burn, and use less wood. My cost was $4800 shipped to me plus another $900 for ductwork. Thats not bad for something that will last me a very long time. My wife can load it if need be and I don't have to stand in the cold when it needs loaded.

It all depends on what you're looking to do. But as most have already said. Insulation is the #1 thing you need to do. A drafty house is a pain to heat.

 

[jh35]

Understood but the old wood furnaces have nothing in common with the new high-efficiency ones.

Because they reburn the smoke and are highly efficient you can reduce your wood usage by at least a 1/3rd and typically more. Longer burn times are also one of the benefits.

I won't argue with you at all. What I did was based on what I could afford. Used OWB and such.

 

[mikehippert]

The hard part for you right now is matching your boiler to your demand. You might need something capable of 150-200 mbtu to heat your house but after it is well insulated you may get by with less then 100 mbtu. That is not just the boiler but also the lines pump and heat exchangers/radiators in the house to deliver that heat.

You can always install a indoor wood boiler in a shed and make the shed big enough to hold a cord of wood so loading will be easy during a storm.

You will need electricity for any boiler system, at a minimum for the pump in the water line so some type of backup power is a must, if your pump is small and efficient like a grundfos alpha and your boiler doesn't require power you could get by with a ups and a few batteries.

Ease of use, would be an efficient gasification furnace and thermal storage for long clean burns and all day heat. If you have a big empty basement you can store a lot of thermal energy in a couple 1000 gallons of well insulated water. Again this needs to be matched to the demand and boiler.

There is a lot to think about, if you plan on having all your insulation done by next fall you might buy an old used indoor wood boiler and some cast iron radiators and temporarily plum them up for the next couple years to get a feel for burning wood and to help calculate how much heat you need after the house is insulated.

 

[verticaltrx]

Admittedly I have not researched indoor wood boilers much, which might be a compromise between the two options. What are some brands to look at? The door to the basement is about 36-38", so getting something that size in the basement might be an issue as well.

One of my biggest concerns about the indoor wood furnace is the ability to burn a full 8-10hrs on a load of wood. That's one of our current problems with our old wood stove is someone has to get up in the middle of the night to keep wood in it. (and we're using good long burning black locust).

 

[woodman6666]

Insulation first then if you are going to stay at this place a long time owb is your best option because of the out buildings. If you dont care to ever heat the outbuildings then it may not be the best choice. Think long term in your decision. Also can you weld? You can build your own owb pretty easily or hire a good welder and probably get one done for a third the cost of new. Also have you checked into geothermal?

 

[Marc]

Admittedly I have not researched indoor wood boilers much, which might be a compromise between the two options. What are some brands to look at? The door to the basement is about 36-38", so getting something that size in the basement might be an issue as well.

One of my biggest concerns about the indoor wood furnace is the ability to burn a full 8-10hrs on a load of wood. That's one of our current problems with our old wood stove is someone has to get up in the middle of the night to keep wood in it. (and we're using good long burning black locust).

Froling, Tarm, EKO, Econoburn, Woodgun. If you're serious about researching that route, read some of the stuff in the boiler room at **********.

If money were no object, I'd have a Froling FHG with 1000 gallons of pressurized water heat storage tomorrow. Lotta $$ though.

Indoor boiler + storage works really well with infloor heat, since infloor heat can operate well on a range of water temperatures.

 

[Clarkbug]

Im one of the guys that went the indoor gasifier route due to the NYS regulations on an OWB and where I live relative to my neighbors.

My wife and I also have an old farm house that needs insulation, and its on our list of things to do. My thought was to get on wood to get off of oil, since we were spending serious $$$ just to keep the house from freezing up. We still have an oil boiler as backup, but are now on 100% wood. Hoping to get some insulating done this summer.

The system I have stores the heat in three 220 gallon tanks, and the house gets heated from those. So I fill the boiler twice a day, it burns out, heats the tanks up, and the house calls for heat as it needs to. As I insulate, the tanks will just deplete slower. (Or at least I hope).

If I were in your situation, I would install radiant heat under floor in a heartbeat. Keeps your feet warm on cold days, you wont have to tear too much up on the first floor to put it in, and you can use really low water temperatures. This would let you even heat your house on solar thermal if you ever wanted to go that route. If you dont have ductwork in place now, and dont plan on A/C, I would avoid going the forced air route, just due to the amount of work to put it in. (This is not a knock against a wood fired furnace, there are really good ones, just that it doesnt make sense to me if you dont have the infrastructure behind it).

As Marc said, the Froiling (sp?)is a hot rod of a boiler with automated controls, and a nice unit. I personally would love to have a Garn, but I didnt have the space or the $ to get one in.

There is a lot of good advice here, and the system you pick will ultimately depend on what you and your wife are comfortable with. I ran an OWB for several years while we rented, and its great to have the wood and the mess outside, but a bummer when its not in a shed and its sleeting and dark out. Think about what you really want it to do for you, what level of effort you want to put in for the next 15+ years, and then come back and ask some more questions.

Good luck!

 

[Como]

Indoor Boilers do not need to be in the house, mine are in a building out the back, so no means goes within 40ft of the building.

Windhager? make special building to house the equipment, most use an existing garage or build their own.

 

[Whitespider]

Well, I’ll be different than most answers on this one. I like the “feel” of wood heat… whether radiated or forced air, wood heat is just more comfortable to me. Any boiler, outdoor or indoor, makes heat that “feels” just like any other boiler heat… it don’t “feel” like wood heat. For that reason alone I wouldn’t have a wood fired boiler.

Personally, the last thing I’d want is an outdoor wood burner of any sort… I don’t care if it only needs to be done once or twice a day, I don’t want to go outside to feed the beast. When I’m loafin’ in the recliner, sippin’ a beer in my slippers and long-johns, I flat don’t want to but my boots and coat on to feed the fire… I prefer to just walk down the steps and toss a couple splits on (even naked I ain’t gonna’ get a chill, and I never need to set that beer down). I also understand (no personal experience) that outdoor wood boilers use a lot of wood compared to an indoor forced air wood furnace… although not necessarily a “deal breaker” for me, it would definitely be a huge part of the decision (especially if I didn’t have a good size woodlot on my property close to the firebox).

Just my take… nothin’ more.

 

[cheeves]

Well, I’ll be different than most answers on this one. I like the “feel” of wood heat… whether radiated or forced air, wood heat is just more comfortable to me. Any boiler, outdoor or indoor, makes heat that “feels” just like any other boiler heat… it don’t “feel” like wood heat. For that reason alone I wouldn’t have a wood fired boiler.

Personally, the last thing I’d want is an outdoor wood burner of any sort… I don’t care if it only needs to be done once or twice a day, I don’t want to go outside to feed the beast. When I’m loafin’ in the recliner, sippin’ a beer in my slippers and long-johns, I flat don’t want to but my boots and coat on to feed the fire… I prefer to just walk down the steps and toss a couple splits on (even naked I ain’t gonna’ get a chill, and I never need to set that beer down). I also understand (no personal experience) that outdoor wood boilers use a lot of wood compared to an indoor forced air wood furnace… although not necessarily a “deal breaker” for me, it would definitely be a huge part of the decision (especially if I didn’t have a good size woodlot on my property close to the firebox).

Just my take… nothin’ more.

Same with me! Although I quit drinkin' years ago.

 

[MNfarmer]

I beg to differ that OWB's won't burn your house down. We were called to a house fire a couple years ago that later was determined to have started from sparks from the OWB that caught some leaves on fire by the back door of the house. Just another way to look at it. Nothing that burns wood is perfectly safe!

 

[OH_Varmntr]

Well, I’ll be different than most answers on this one. I like the “feel” of wood heat… whether radiated or forced air, wood heat is just more comfortable to me. Any boiler, outdoor or indoor, makes heat that “feels” just like any other boiler heat… it don’t “feel” like wood heat. For that reason alone I wouldn’t have a wood fired boiler.

Personally, the last thing I’d want is an outdoor wood burner of any sort… I don’t care if it only needs to be done once or twice a day, I don’t want to go outside to feed the beast. When I’m loafin’ in the recliner, sippin’ a beer in my slippers and long-johns, I flat don’t want to but my boots and coat on to feed the fire… I prefer to just walk down the steps and toss a couple splits on (even naked I ain’t gonna’ get a chill, and I never need to set that beer down). I also understand (no personal experience) that outdoor wood boilers use a lot of wood compared to an indoor forced air wood furnace… although not necessarily a “deal breaker” for me, it would definitely be a huge part of the decision (especially if I didn’t have a good size woodlot on my property close to the firebox).

Just my take… nothin’ more.

I agree on the "feel" of radiant heat off a wood stove. Nothing like it that's for sure.

I don't make special trips to add wood to my OWB. When I go out to start the beater before work in the morning, it takes all of 5 minutes and 20 extra steps to add enough wood to last another 24 hours. If I'm running a bit behind in the morning and don't load it, I don't have to worry about the house being cold when I get home. There's enough hot coals left in the box to get a fire going again quickly and the water temp doesn't drop very far. As far as sitting that beer down, well they make helmets with straws for that. :hmm3grin2orange:

Another thing I don't miss about my wood furnace is the temperature fluctuations. Forced air heat from the heat exchangers keep the house within 1 degree of it's setpoint, 24 hours a day.

 

[stihly dan]

That is a +++++. The furnace with the smallest loads added theres still a good 4 deg difference. And for an all night burn, 10 deg diff.
Mine anyway

 

[verticaltrx]

I got the first quote back for installing a forced air oil furnace, duct work and vent work which comes to $8,000. Add a decent wood furnace and a chimney liner and that puts the total near $11,000. I'm still waiting on the second quote, but I don't see it being much less. Those prices put me in range of an OWB and radiant floor heat if I do it myself. We will still keep the wood stove in the living room and will have a wood cook stove in the kitchen, so I guess we'll have the benefits of both wood burning methods.

I'm sure there is a ton of reading on it, but briefly what are the pros/cons of a stainless steel boiler vs mild steel? Also what are the pros/cons of radiant floor vs baseboard radiators?

 

[morewood]

Well, you have enough votes for insulation to understand that aspect. I have had the OWB for 7 years. The old house never had any duct work and the floors aren't level enough to deal with radiant flooring. We installed kickspace forced air heaters in every room controlled with a simple thermostat. I built a false floor in the closets to put them in or a box and shelf depending on the room. I can heat which rooms I want when I want. The bathroom never gets cold and the wife stays happy. It is a simple option if you can't get duct work and such together. Using a manifold system instead of a series loop would help with what I did if it matters to you.

Shea

 

[brenndatomu]

From what I've heard about stainless boilers, the stainless doesn't take the heat cycles well. Also, I've heard a lot about the welds rusting due to impuritys from the welding process. Maybe someone on here is a metallurgist, could explain it all.
A well built steel boiler will last a long time if the water chemistry is kept right.