is a liner necessary for insert?

[dgcarmack]

I just purchased a wood stove and was wondering if it's necessary to install a chimney liner for it to be up to code? I have received conflicting information about this, but would like to know.
btw, I am located in Ohio.

 

[mga]

I just purchased a wood stove and was wondering if it's necessary to install a chimney liner for it to be up to code? I have received conflicting information about this, but would like to know.
btw, I am located in Ohio.

what does your local ordinance say?

 

[hangnail]

I just purchased a wood stove and was wondering if it's necessary to install a chimney liner for it to be up to code? I have received conflicting information about this, but would like to know.
btw, I am located in Ohio.

check your codes, it also depends on your current chimney and its condition. I just put in a new wood stove and also added aliner for 3 reasons, it will get a better drafts, and it is easier to clean, as well as my house was built in 1920, don't want to take any chances although the chimney is in great shape.

here, I could have used regular stove pipe, and i belive it needs to extend 5 feet into the chimney.

so to answer your question to the best of my knowledge. yes and no

 

[laynes69]

Technically, If you have a liner (Clay) thats in good condition you shouldn't have to line your chimney. But if the chimney is too large, ex. 8x12 for a 6" outlet on a woodstove then lining would benefit many times over. If the chimney is in poor shape, and doesn't have a liner, then a liner with an insulation jacket would be in order. Liners are good also to help some overcome draft issues and allow for hotter flue temps, reducing creasote buildup. If I was installing a new woodstove with todays modern technology, then I would spend the 300-400 to line the chimney.

 

[Griffbm3]

Locally since my chimney is a terracotta lined brick chimney, with a 6 inch exhaust from my wood stove, I put a stainless single liner all the way up, and you wouldn't believe the draft up the chimney.

It is extremely nice to be able to burn a REALLY hot fire in the morning, and burn off any build up from the overnight.

Good luck, I wish there was an easy answer

 

[Wood Doctor]

I just purchased a wood stove and was wondering if it's necessary to install a chimney liner for it to be up to code? I have received conflicting information about this, but would like to know.
btw, I am located in Ohio.

I have been burning five to seven cords of dry hardwood firewood for the past 20 years with a wood stove connected to a 35' tall masonry flue, well made with an ash pit but without a liner. It seems to work fine, and I sweep it every two years. Is your chimney a masonry flue?

 

[woodfarmer]

dg, to answer the question properly, you need to ask it properly, in your first question in the title you ask if it is necessary to line the chimney with an insert (yes) and then you say you just bought a wood stove, which is it an insert or stove?(would depend on the condition of the chimney).

 

[adamc]

Hi all,

I installed in insert last year and although I have a full masonry chimney in fairly good shape, I installed an insulated liner for a variety of reasons:

First, according to the NFPA, a liner is not required ONLY if the existing chimney meets all current NFPA codes. According to my research, very few chimneys meet these requirements (even in brand new houses!). For resale value of the house, I want to be able to honestly state that the insert is installed according to code. Not all local codes follow and/or enforce NFPA, but most do.

Second, as has already been stated, it drafts better and requires less cleaning, and insulating enhances these characteristics. In addition to less cleaning, when I do sweep the liner, the sweepings fall neatly into the insert. If you don't use a liner, the sweepings fall all over the top of the insert, beside it, behind it, etc.

Third, carbon monoxide risk. By having a sealed (or nearly sealed) liner all the way up the chimney, the chance of CO entry into the house is minimized. If you don't use a liner, you will have to install a "block off plate" through which a stub of stove pipe will pass. Getting the block off plate installed and sealed well enough to be sure that it drafts properly and that smoke and CO won't leak into the house can be challenging.

Last but not least, piece of mind. If I remember correctly, the whole job cost me about $3K. The liner and insulation kit were about $600 of that cost. It was well worth it to sleep well at night knowing that the risk of of chimney fire was dramatically reduced and that if there were a fire, it would be safely contained.

I didn't know this until I got well into the installation, but I am pretty sure I would not have succeeded at trying to install a functional block off plate in my particular fireplace (old heatalator). I did install one for extra insulation value, but there is no way that it is sealed well enough that it would have been safe on it's own.

Hope this all helps.

Adam

 

[Toddppm]

Hi all,


I didn't know this until I got well into the installation, but I am pretty sure I would not have succeeded at trying to install a functional block off plate in my particular fireplace (old heatalator). I did install one for extra insulation value, but there is no way that it is sealed well enough that it would have been safe on it's own.

Hope this all helps.

Adam

Did you install the liner yourself or hire it out? $3000 was installed?
I have a heatalator in my fireplace too and was just wondering of you had to cut through yours. I'll have to cut part of mine out for the flue to fit, was hoping a sawzall will work ok and not have to use a grinder in the house!

 

[johnha]

Yes.

 

[046]

depends upon local code and insert mfg recommendations.

most will require a liner... but not all.

my JUCA custom insert doesn't require a liner and runs fine. 3 seasons with almost no creosote buildup. it's unusual that it uses the original firebrick floor with all original functions like floor ash dump and log starter.

 

[adamc]

Todd,

I did install it myself. It would have been another $1K or so to have it installed.

I had to cut out the old damper and also had to cut out some of the frame that the damper closes onto. Cutting out the damper was fairly easy, but the frame was tough. There was a lot of rust and dirt and the metal was heat hardened. I was able to cut it out with a hacksaw enough for the flue to clear. I made cuts straight in from the edge and just bent the metal out of the way. I also wanted to avoid power tools.

Adam

 

[adamc]

depends upon local code and insert mfg recommendations.

most will require a liner... but not all.

my JUCA custom insert doesn't require a liner and runs fine. 3 seasons with almost no creosote buildup. it's unusual that it uses the original firebrick floor with all original functions like floor ash dump and log starter.

Your JUCA draws very differently than a sealed insert (more like a conventional fireplace). The JUCA draws more air, so it will work OK with a larger flue, and deposits less creosote because the smoke is effectively diluted.

Adam

 

[046]

amazing ... you are pretty much correct... open burn means insert is not dampen down. burns like a conventional fireplace. yes... JUCA uses a lot of air, which is fed from ash duct. no inside air is used for combustion.

creosote is not formed due to high temps resulting in a complete burn.

Your JUCA draws very differently than a sealed insert (more like a conventional fireplace). The JUCA draws more air, so it will work OK with a larger flue, and deposits less creosote because the smoke is effectively diluted.

Adam

 

[adamc]

amazing ... you are pretty much correct... open burn means insert is not dampen down. burns like a conventional fireplace. yes... JUCA uses a lot of air, which is fed from ash duct. no inside air is used for combustion.

creosote is not formed due to high temps resulting in a complete burn.

I would attribute a lot of the JUCA's advantage to the fact that it draws combustion air from outside the house instead of pulling warm air from the house up the chimney.

They assert that their lower smoke temperature equates with higher efficiency, but when you take into consideration that the draft rate is much higher, more total BTU's may be going up the chimney.

I do take some issue with their assertion that sealed inserts result in "smouldering" and an "incomplete burn" and therefore creosote accumulation. This may have been true with older inserts, but it is no longer so with modern EPA certified units engineered for efficient secondary burning of the smoke. I am amazed at how little creosote accumulation I get with my insert.

I am not trying to bad mouth JUCA or be a salesman for sealed inserts, but the JUCA website makes it challenging to glean out meaningful information. I would really love to see one in person.

Apologies to the OP for drifting off topic.

Adam

 

[046]

again... I basically agree with what you posted below.

JUCA has been around for 20+ years.... a LOT has changed. secondary combustion has matured and are very clean burning without a cat.

it's true about exhaust smoke temp being very low due to high heat exchanger efficiencies. but conversely... operating temps are very high resulting in a clean burn.

outside surface of my JUCA rarely gets over 225 f ... and that's when it's really cranking. most of the times outside of JUCA is barely warm.

as for airtight operation with secondary combustion.... that's what I'm planning on converting my JUCA into. ideally I would get the best of both... super high efficient heat exchanger combined with much higher efficiency of secondary burn.

I would attribute a lot of the JUCA's advantage to the fact that it draws combustion air from outside the house instead of pulling warm air from the house up the chimney.

They assert that their lower smoke temperature equates with higher efficiency, but when you take into consideration that the draft rate is much higher, more total BTU's may be going up the chimney.

I do take some issue with their assertion that sealed inserts result in "smouldering" and an "incomplete burn" and therefore creosote accumulation. This may have been true with older inserts, but it is no longer so with modern EPA certified units engineered for efficient secondary burning of the smoke. I am amazed at how little creosote accumulation I get with my insert.

I am not trying to bad mouth JUCA or be a salesman for sealed inserts, but the JUCA website makes it challenging to glean out meaningful information. I would really love to see one in person.

Apologies to the OP for drifting off topic.

Adam

 

[RON58]

Kinda along these lines. Any ideas on how to insulate a 8" steel pipe flue? Maybe a thin metal jacket but what to use for insulation?

 

[adamc]

Kinda along these lines. Any ideas on how to insulate a 8" steel pipe flue? Maybe a thin metal jacket but what to use for insulation?

Insulation kits are available that consist of foil backed rock-wool type material, foil tape and stainless steel mesh overwrap to protect the insulation from being torn. Many local and online heart supply outlets carry them.

Adam

 

[hangnail]

it will add about 1 inch of total diameter so bear that in mind, it it 1/2 thick, once you wrap it with the chicken wire and secrure it.

 

[adamc]

it will add about 1 inch of total diameter so bear that in mind, it it 1/2 thick, once you wrap it with the chicken wire and secrure it.

This is a very good point, and to put it into further perspective... I put a 6" liner with insulation down my 13" (measured outside, maybe 11.5 inside) and it was challenging. You have to remember that the liner will come rolled and it is impossible to get it perfectly straight. Add in the fact that there will be some mortar turds in the chimney and it gets pretty tight.

Adam