is your wood pricing viable, with increased fuel cost's

[chucker]

just a sample of minnesota state sales laws and regs...

How to Buy Firewood


Printable Content
What should I consider when buying firewood?
As in any transaction, your safest bet is to deal with a reputable business. Before you purchase any wood, ask for the seller's name, business address, and phone number. Request a receipt with this information as well as the price, amount, and agreed upon type of wood. Without this information, it is difficult to settle a dispute should one arise. If the seller refuses to provide this information, consider doing business with a different company. If the seller refuses to give the agreed upon receipt at the time of delivery, record the delivery vehicle's license plate number.

Try to be present at the time of delivery, and either stack the wood yourself, or have the delivery person stack it, so that you both can determine the amount of wood delivered. If the delivery person can not wait, or you can not be there at the time of delivery, and you discover that the delivery is short when it is stacked, do not use any of the wood. Contact the seller immediately. If you cannot settle the matter satisfactorily, contact the Weights and Measures Division.

How is firewood measured?
Firewood may be measured by the cubic foot, the cubic meter, or the cord. If measured by the foot or meter, the wood is first stacked with all pieces placed parallel to each other. The wood is then said to be ranked. Wood must be ranked if it is to be measured accurately. Ranking minimizes the space between the sticks, or pieces, of wood. Some sellers use various cross-stacking methods to exaggerate the quantity of wood delivered. Do not attempt to measure cross-stacked wood.

What is a cord?
A cord has a specific legal definition in Minnesota:

One cord is 128 cubic feet in four foot lengths.
If the wood is sawed, a cord is 110 cubic feet when ranked, or 160 cubic feet when thrown loosely into a truck.
If the wood is sawed and split, a cord is 120 cubic feet when ranked, and 175 cubic feet when thrown loosely into a truck. (Minnesota Statutes, Section 239.33)
Must I buy my wood in cords?
No. You and the seller may enter into any agreement you choose, but be aware that words like truckload, face cord, rick, fireplace cord, or pile, have no legal definition. The Weights and Measures Division can not help you in a dispute if the wood is not sold by the cubic foot, the cubic meter, or the cord.

How do I calculate the number of cords I receive in a delivery?
If the wood is ranked, multiply the wood pile's height by its length and stick (piece) length (height x length x stick length) and divide by 110 if the wood is sawed, by 120 if the wood is sawed and split, and 128 in all other cases. Remember to make all your measurements in feet.

# cords of ranked sawed wood = (height x length x stick length)/110
# cords of ranked sawed and split wood = (height x length x stick width)/120
# cords of all other ranked wood = (height x length x stick width)/128

If the wood is loosely thrown into the back of a truck, measure the dimensions of the truck bed and the height of the wood in feet. Multiply the height of the wood by the length and width of the truck bed. Divide by 160 if the wood is sawed, or by 175 if the wood is sawed and split.

# cords of sawed wood loosely thrown into a truck = (height of wood x truck bed's length x truck bed's width)/160
# cords of sawed and split wood loosely thrown into a truck = (height of wood x truck bed's length x truck bed's width)/175
Labeling
All firewood sold or distributed across state boundaries or more than 100 miles from its origin must include information regarding the harvest locations of the wood by county and state. If it is packaged wood this information must be on the label or wrapper. If it is bulk wood, this information must be on the delivery ticket. The Department of Agriculture has some additional information on its website for the public about pest control . There is also additional information specifically for dealers .

Who do I contact if I have more questions?
If you want more information regarding firewood sales, or if you need to report a firewood dispute, you may e -mail the Weights and Measures Division

Note: the downloadable version of this material includes additional information from the Minnesota Department of Agriculture.


Printable Content

Download File















Featured Links

• Department of Commerce Annual Report
• Info for Military Service Members






Copyright 2000 North Star, Minnesota State Government Online
North Star is led by the Office of Enterprise Technology
This site best viewed with 1024X768 or greater and with Netscape 4.7 or Internet Explorer 4.5 or greater.

 

[Circle B MN]

How to Buy Firewood


Printable Content
What should I consider when buying firewood?
As in any transaction, your safest bet is to deal with a reputable business. Before you purchase any wood, ask for the seller's name, business address, and phone number. Request a receipt with this information as well as the price, amount, and agreed upon type of wood. Without this information, it is difficult to settle a dispute should one arise. If the seller refuses to provide this information, consider doing business with a different company. If the seller refuses to give the agreed upon receipt at the time of delivery, record the delivery vehicle's license plate number.

Try to be present at the time of delivery, and either stack the wood yourself, or have the delivery person stack it, so that you both can determine the amount of wood delivered. If the delivery person can not wait, or you can not be there at the time of delivery, and you discover that the delivery is short when it is stacked, do not use any of the wood. Contact the seller immediately. If you cannot settle the matter satisfactorily, contact the Weights and Measures Division.

How is firewood measured?
Firewood may be measured by the cubic foot, the cubic meter, or the cord. If measured by the foot or meter, the wood is first stacked with all pieces placed parallel to each other. The wood is then said to be ranked. Wood must be ranked if it is to be measured accurately. Ranking minimizes the space between the sticks, or pieces, of wood. Some sellers use various cross-stacking methods to exaggerate the quantity of wood delivered. Do not attempt to measure cross-stacked wood.

What is a cord?
A cord has a specific legal definition in Minnesota:

One cord is 128 cubic feet in four foot lengths.
If the wood is sawed, a cord is 110 cubic feet when ranked, or 160 cubic feet when thrown loosely into a truck.
If the wood is sawed and split, a cord is 120 cubic feet when ranked, and 175 cubic feet when thrown loosely into a truck. (Minnesota Statutes, Section 239.33)
Must I buy my wood in cords?
No. You and the seller may enter into any agreement you choose, but be aware that words like truckload, face cord, rick, fireplace cord, or pile, have no legal definition. The Weights and Measures Division can not help you in a dispute if the wood is not sold by the cubic foot, the cubic meter, or the cord.

How do I calculate the number of cords I receive in a delivery?
If the wood is ranked, multiply the wood pile's height by its length and stick (piece) length (height x length x stick length) and divide by 110 if the wood is sawed, by 120 if the wood is sawed and split, and 128 in all other cases. Remember to make all your measurements in feet.

# cords of ranked sawed wood = (height x length x stick length)/110
# cords of ranked sawed and split wood = (height x length x stick width)/120
# cords of all other ranked wood = (height x length x stick width)/128

If the wood is loosely thrown into the back of a truck, measure the dimensions of the truck bed and the height of the wood in feet. Multiply the height of the wood by the length and width of the truck bed. Divide by 160 if the wood is sawed, or by 175 if the wood is sawed and split.

# cords of sawed wood loosely thrown into a truck = (height of wood x truck bed's length x truck bed's width)/160
# cords of sawed and split wood loosely thrown into a truck = (height of wood x truck bed's length x truck bed's width)/175
Labeling
All firewood sold or distributed across state boundaries or more than 100 miles from its origin must include information regarding the harvest locations of the wood by county and state. If it is packaged wood this information must be on the label or wrapper. If it is bulk wood, this information must be on the delivery ticket. The Department of Agriculture has some additional information on its website for the public about pest control . There is also additional information specifically for dealers .

Who do I contact if I have more questions?
If you want more information regarding firewood sales, or if you need to report a firewood dispute, you may e -mail the Weights and Measures Division

Note: the downloadable version of this material includes additional information from the Minnesota Department of Agriculture.


Printable Content

Download File















Featured Links

• Department of Commerce Annual Report
• Info for Military Service Members






Copyright 2000 North Star, Minnesota State Government Online
North Star is led by the Office of Enterprise Technology
This site best viewed with 1024X768 or greater and with Netscape 4.7 or Internet Explorer 4.5 or greater.

:cool2:
oke:
opcorn:

 

[leon]

firewood

All the more reason for wood sales by
the green or seasoned tonnage.


I know people think its screwy/wrong/crazy
but "legal tender and wieghts and measures"
always go hand in hand.

You have to understand that you can not buy
any "commodity" EXCEPT firewood this way and
I defy anyone to prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The sooner you educate your customer(s) the better
off you both will be and it legally eliminates any
avenue of complaint by the consumer and the
wieght ticket will be the final word in the entire issue.:bang::msp_angry:

 

[TMFARM 2009]

ok seeing what you have posted here... could a person use the cord measurement before splitting or after?????
i.e. the quarter pounder... was a quarter pound before frying... end result less weight in finished product for more money...
couldn't some legal beagle twist this measurement to soot?
i see guys around here use 4x4 square cubes, old fertilizer pallet cubes and call four thrown full a cord...
the big question is do you set all your wood out and rank it measure it completely???
i hear so many people act as if they are totally accurate every time..
do you factor in the air gaps etc.?oke::big_smile:

 

[Diesel nut]

If I was to ever sell firewood I'm like Leon sell it by the ton rather than cord. I think it would be a more accurate way of selling it. I understand that not everyone has access to a scale capable of doing that but that seems to me the best way to do it. Just my .02

 

[leon]

firewood troubles

If I was to ever sell firewood I'm like Leon sell it by the ton rather than cord. I think it would be a more accurate way of selling it. I understand that not everyone has access to a scale capable of doing that but that seems to me the best way to do it. Just my .02

Kind sir, thank you I appreciate the compliment.


You can buy small portable platform scales that
you can accurately measure firewood with zeroing out the tare
weight of the bin you are piling it in if desired and you can buy small
load cell kits that you can install on trailers for accurate weights.

 

[Dalmatian90]

You can buy small portable platform scales

Connecticut law allows firewood to be sold by weight -- but it has to be weighed on a licensed, stationary public scale.

Can't imagine that's a convenient procedure for most sellers.

 

[TMFARM 2009]

around here there is a grain elevator close to everyone! or a truck stop...
oh by the way, i thought there was 101 dalmatians..

 

[Circle B MN]

ok seeing what you have posted here... could a person use the cord measurement before splitting or after?????
i.e. the quarter pounder... was a quarter pound before frying... end result less weight in finished product for more money...
couldn't some legal beagle twist this measurement to soot?
i see guys around here use 4x4 square cubes, old fertilizer pallet cubes and call four thrown full a cord...
the big question is do you set all your wood out and rank it measure it completely???
i hear so many people act as if they are totally accurate every time..
do you factor in the air gaps etc.?oke::big_smile:

You are correct about the 1/4 pounder, says so right on the box...:cool2:

When I sell wood, it is stacked, after seasoning, in racks equaling 1/3 of a cord or a portion there of depending on the order. Air gaps are included, but the wood is stacked neatly in an effort to honestly represent that unit. It's not a hard thing to do, takes little time, and keeps everything on the level. Your not shorting them, nor yourself.

As an experiment, toss six truck loads of wood as if you were going to deliver them. Then stack those loads, and obvserve that varience. I've done it.

Good discussion men.....:msp_thumbup:

 

[Dalmatian90]

could a person use the cord measurement before splitting or after

Nope.

It's the condition at the time of sale.

A cord is 128 cu. ft. of wood "ranked and well stowed" -- doesn't matter whether you're stacking rounds or splits. Well stowed is reasonable care -- you're not spending time analyzing how to fit in each piece of wood, but you're also not deliberately trying to puff up the volume.

You can't sell a cord of green rounds to a customer, then come back in six months after he bought it and ask for more money now that it has:

a) A larger volume since it's been split, and

b) And is now legally seasoned (six months is specified in CT law to sell wood as "seasoned").

It's up to seller to deliver what at least the minimum he is warranting -- a cord, green or seasoned, round or split, oak, mixed hardwood, softwood.

It's up to the customer to understand what they're buying including the difference in BTUs between pine and oak, or the difference in amount of wood in the form of rounds or splits.

You agree to buy a cord of split pine you do so understanding it will contain less wood of lower BTU content then a cord of oak rounds.

 

[TMFARM 2009]

"You are correct about the 1/4 pounder, says so right on the box..."
why not like this ?

View attachment 179656

then in fine print i will have a note to consumer, stove log, once part of a tree before splitting and cutting...
:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Junkrunner]

Sorry fellas, I don't see how sellin firewoood by weight would work.


I was talkin to some guys about this thread, and asked them about sellin by weight, and they just like I, laughed. I understand it's a legal means. But seems it would be real easy to lie about it. Are the customers gonna be at the scale house when it's weighed? Are you really gonna carry scales with you? how would the customer know if it's calibrated right? If it's pourin rain, then what???

Does anyone know what a 5% moisture increase would weigh, for a ton of red oak? Or wouldn't it make that much difference?

Sorry, that seems like that would be a royal pain....Help me understand :confused2:

 

[chucker]

" Sorry, that seems like that would be a royal pain....Help me understand " !! PLEASE, help us all if were to try selling wood like we sell corn or other commodities....wall street will have this as well!

 

[leon]

firewood

Sorry fellas, I don't see how sellin firewoood by weight would work.


I was talkin to some guys about this thread, and asked them about sellin by weight, and they just like I, laughed.

" anyone who buys firewood from a logger and runs it through a processor pays by the ton!!! DUUUHHHH!!!!


I understand it's a legal means.

"Wieghts and Measures" in any Jurisdition is the Back backbone of the collection of sales tax revenue of all state city and county governments.


But seems it would be real easy to lie about it.

"Not posssible, the 4 percent fuel tax on firewood is charged on thrown cords and kerosene and fuel oil.


Are the customers gonna be at the scale house when it's weighed?


They dont need to be when you have a certified scale ticket!!!


Are you really gonna carry scales with you? how would the customer know if it's calibrated right? If it's pourin rain, then what???

"the scale house ticket is your guarantee to the customer that the wieght you are buying was wieghed by a certified scale.




Does anyone know what a 5% moisture increase would weigh, for a ton of red oak?

"its one hundred pounds for every ton."




Or wouldn't it make that much difference?

"the minute you have a scale ticket in your hand from the certified scaler itis legal tender in all fifty states!!!!"



Sorry, that seems like that would be a royal pain....Help me understand :confused2:

=======================================================================================================================================================================================================================



Sales by wieght are the normal course of business for every business today, you just dont realise it.

You are charged frieght delivery pricing for machinery delivered to you for the frieght cost incurred for delivery prior to selling you a cowboy Cadillac in one example.




How do you expect to lie or your customer will be lied to about what is on a "LEGITIMATE AND ANNUALLY CERTIFIED SCALE" ticket?

Cant be done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fraud in the sale of any commodity with innacurate scales will guarantee you a visit as a "guest of the West Virginia Regional Jail Authority"at the tax payers expense or any other state in the union or any country for that matter.


I have repeated and repeated on the forum here is you will have credibility instantly in selling green or seasoned fire wood the first time everytime and the wieghts and measure department in every county and every state in the union guarantees this as "Proper Wieghts and Measures Certification" is a matter of fact.

You will make money, and if you are not making money your not paying attention to detail, or your doing it for beer money as recreational seller of firewood.

The cordage measure of firewood is several hundred years old if I remember my history correctly as small scales for commerce were only used for valuable metals and they had proper wieghts for them as well. :msp_w00t:uttahere2:

 

[Junkrunner]

=======================================================================================================================================================================================================================



Sales by wieght are the normal course of business for every business today, you just dont realise it.

You are charged frieght delivery pricing for machinery delivered to you for the frieght cost incurred for delivery prior to selling you a cowboy Cadillac in one example.




How do you expect to lie or your customer will be lied to about what is on a "LEGITIMATE AND ANNUALLY CERTIFIED SCALE" ticket?

Cant be done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fraud in the sale of any commodity with innacurate scales will guarantee you a visit as a "guest of the West Virginia Regional Jail Authority"at the tax payers expense or any other state in the union or any country for that matter.


I have repeated and repeated on the forum here is you will have credibility instantly in selling green or seasoned fire wood the first time everytime and the wieghts and measure department in every county and every state in the union guarantees this as "Proper Wieghts and Measures Certification" is a matter of fact.

You will make money, and if you are not making money your not paying attention to detail, or your doing it for beer money as recreational seller of firewood.

The cordage measure of firewood is several hundred years old if I remember my history correctly as small scales for commerce were only used for valuable metals and they had proper wieghts for them as well. :msp_w00t:uttahere2:

Alright, So do you guys check the moisture content of your wood before you sell?

No wonder your prices gotta be so high. And no NOT EVERYONE that buys firewood from a logger pays for there wood by weight..

So what would stop them from throwing a hundred pounds of wood off after its bin weighed??

you say it can't be done, I say BULL. If theres a will theres a way. DOUBLE DUHHH!!!!!!!!!!! There's always ways around "the man".


Like you said, cord measurment has bin used along time. Why change now? People that buy wood here, would be asking how much (cord measurment) is a ton of wood????

I don't EVER see that happening here. I would have to get 250 bucks a cord to pay for all the extra runnin to a certified scale, which is farther away than I go for local deliver... I live in the sticks... And we don't sell our shine by weight either!!!!:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Junkrunner]

I found this link and others, when I googled "selling firewood by weight"


FIREWOOD SALES IN CONNECTICUT

The truck has to be weighed right before loading. On STATIONARY certified scales...

Just don't see that being a viable way to sell firewood. If you guys wanna go thru all that trouble, then more power to you......:msp_thumbup:

 

[leon]

fiewood-continued

Regarding your comments:


First off; the small hand held contact moisture meters are not that expensive.

The high prices for firewood are a monster of our own making especially if the price is raised 600% by some firewood processors when the firewood purchased by them by the ton on thier certified scales is taken into account.

the prices are that high for several reasons;

1. the need to purchase cordwood inventory in advance by the firewood processor to create a seasoned wood stockpile and to have a base cordwood amount to set aside for "seasoned" firewood inventory.

2. the current method of firewood processing requires large cash outlays for diesel fuel, lubricants and spare parts.

3. whether a processor uses saw chain or a circular saw with or without the IP teeth they get dull and require down time to change if they become damaged.

4.
a. spare parts
b. diesel fuel
c. hydraulic oil
d. a large haul truck or trailer to carry 2.5 and 5 cord loads of thrown firewood.
d1. maintenance costs of said vehicles
d2. theft and casualty loss insurance cost for said vehicles
d3. umbrella liability insurance cost for the truck(s)
d4. theft and casualty insurance cost for the firewood processor
d5. umbrella insurance cost for the firewood processor as a casualty loss usually leads to scrapping the firewood processor and any injured parties.
d6. workmans compensation cost related to the timber industry
for usual customary and reasonable expenses for insurance.
(if you do not have a comprehensive comp., policy even if you are self employed you are asking for trouble)


As far as throwing wood off if- anyone see's this happen word gets around quickly especially to the wieghts and measures office at the county seat.

If your willingly making the blatant statement "theres always a way to get around the man" what does this say of your specific business?........


As far as volume measurements are concerned you can educate your customer and explain that it is better and more economical for them as a buyer of fuel wood to purchase it by the tone rather than the cord as THERE ARE NO AIR GAPS OR QUESTIONS IN VOLUME.

If you are not willing to increase your customer base by offering seasoned or green firewood by wieght your hurting your self.
Further in every county seat they are obligated to inform the public where the location of every certified truck scale is located for the publics use................................................


Your last paragraph is self explanatory AND every bit of shine you pour in a bottle is poured into a CONTAINER OF A CERTAIN VOLUME THAT IS PREDETERMINED by the bottle maker and the weights and measures office in the county seat where the glass maker is located.

 

[Junkrunner]

Expand by selling by weight!! Sorry we'll have to agree too, disagree... :msp_wink:

Really, are you gonna have your truck weighed before loading, load it, re-weigh it?

As far as my BLATANT statement of "If there's a will there's a way" reflecting on my business... That's just fact of life...... And you're ASSUME that's what I do! And what does that say about yourself as a person???

I can't see the customers here being more happy, payin more for their wood, just because I have a piece of paper sayin so....

We sell the shine by how many chugs per container. Thats our certified REDNECK weights and measurements!

 

[leon]

firewood

Expand by selling by weight!! Sorry we'll have to agree too, disagree... :msp_wink:

Really, are you gonna have your truck weighed before loading, load it, re-weigh it?

"This happens every day nation wide."




As far as my BLATANT statement of "If there's a will there's a way" reflecting on my business... That's just fact of life...... And you're ASSUME that's what I do! And what does that say about yourself as a person???

"its easier to learn the right way to do things than unlearn bad habits. Admitting that taking advantage of your customers is both bad business and promotes a lot of bad will.




I can't see the customers here being more happy, payin more for their wood, just because I have a piece of paper sayin so....


AS I belabored the point selling by the ton make you more money and saves the customer money and will give you repeat business.


We sell the shine by how many chugs per container. Thats our certified REDNECK weights and measurements!

You said redneck measurements not ME.


Empty trucks are always re-wieghed prior to loading or after offloading of a load.

Any commodity even if its run of mine coal being carried to a remote stockpile wherein the truck has been previously wieghed empty WHERE IT IS WEIGHED BEFORE DUMPING and the RECORDS ARE KEPT BY THE SCALE OPERATOR AS THEY ARE "LEGAL" DOCUMENTS.



Arab Proverb: It is better to stay silent than proving one is a fool by speaking.

 

[Junkrunner]

You said redneck measurements not ME.


Empty trucks are always re-wieghed prior to loading or after offloading of a load.

Any commodity even if its run of mine coal being carried to a remote stockpile wherein the truck has been previously wieghed empty WHERE IT IS WEIGHED BEFORE DUMPING and the RECORDS ARE KEPT BY THE SCALE OPERATOR AS THEY ARE "LEGAL" DOCUMENTS.



Arab Proverb: It is better to stay silent than proving one is a fool by speaking.

If you had to drive 27 miles one way to a weigh (not wiegh) station, would you do so?? That's the only POINT I'm making. it is not cost effective to do so, HERE.. I'd have 120 miles logged in, passing by the deliver point, 3 TIMES before I dropp it off!! I f you are buyin log length to stock up , is one thing but to do that with every 1/2 cord or what ever that weighed would be crazy.....

P.S. I ain't religious nor do I worry about proving I'm a fool . I already know that! I'm still repling on your rediculous idea!! Just can't fool a fool, can ya??????:msp_biggrin: :tongue2:


here's Virginia law on the sale of firewood... I see nothing about weighing it...
http://www.dof.virginia.gov/mgt/firewood.htm