ISA has a $200 recertification fee now

[jefflovstrom]

Jeff, I have been an ISA certified arborist for over 10 years as well as a long list of other more reputable education. Unlike other people on hear I don't and wont list it all to try and impress a bunch of people I don't know.. The arborist I hired was a girl who talked a really good game in the interview, but had no actual field experience (other than sales) and no diploma in any related field. The company she worked for before had simply trained her to pass the test to stick the logo on her business card. This was the start of my realization that ISA cert can mean nothing.

Do I think ISA provide some great information and a decent base for an arborist to start from? absolutely. I just happen to think that they aren't the cat's ass. Most of the blame goes to the ISA for poor testing and treating their organization more like a corporation instead of a governing body.

I only hire arborists with an arboriculture diploma by the way, most of them are ISA cert as well but generally that means nothing to me.

So yes, I do think it carries absolutely no weight even though I advertize it and continue to keep certified for reasons others have mentioned ie. municipal contracts, arborist reports.

:monkey:

I really see where you are coming from and I understand the easy enterance to a cert. I also know my customer base and without-out the cert- no way to get in. No weight? Wrong- lotta weight but maybe abused and mis-used in in certain contracts.

 

[jefflovstrom]

"Tell me, where is integrity bred - in the heart, or in the head?"

Passing a written test is hardly any indication of integrity or dedication to proper practice. There are hacks and pros of both the certified and uncertified sort. I would prefer to hire ISA cert, but overall competency and professional performance is the primary criteria. Overall, you had better prove that you are not a hack, regardless of any cert you may have.

DUH!- What I said!
Jeff

 

[af7850]

DUH!- What I said!
Jeff

Hmmm, okay then, I didn't get that from your post but I'm glad we agree.

"Once again you really shouldn't mumble, 'cause it's kinda starting to bum me out."

 

[jefflovstrom]

"Tell me, where is integrity bred - in the heart, or in the head?"

Passing a written test is hardly any indication of integrity or dedication to proper practice. There are hacks and pros of both the certified and uncertified sort. I would prefer to hire ISA cert, but overall competency and professional performance is the primary criteria. Overall, you had better prove that you are not a hack, regardless of any cert you may have.

Was there an "integrity" question? Was it in the heart or in the head? Get real.
Jeff

 

[ChiHD]

I really see where you are coming from and I understand the easy enterance to a cert. I also know my customer base and without-out the cert- no way to get in. No weight? Wrong- lotta weight but maybe abused and mis-used in in certain contracts.

A lot of hacks around here seem to be busier than the legit guys sometimes. Granted they're probably working for peanuts, but I think that has also made me a bit weary/grumpy. Some days you just get tired of explaining the same old certification/insurance speel to customers .

Maybe we can say "some" weight?!!

 

[jefflovstrom]

Your ok man,
Jeff

 

[af7850]

Was there an "integrity" question? Was it in the heart or in the head? Get real.
Jeff

Yes, there was certainly a question of integrity. The quote was borrowed from Gene Wilder, but it is certainly relevant. Let me explain...

I don't know what market you target but without the cert- you better prove you are not a hack.

Here you state that an individual without ISA Cert needs to prove that they are "not a hack", inferring that one who does have ISA Cert does not have to prove themselves, presumably because possession of the Cert is itself proof.

I say that you are wrong. The fact that ISA Certified hacks do exist proves that knowledge of proper practice does not preclude an individual from being a hack. I say that integrity is the equally important factor in determining pro from hack, and as integrity is a function of character - not intellect - it cannot be measured by a written test.

So tell me, where is integrity measured(bred)? In the character(heart) of a person or in the intellect(head)? Get it?

"Uh, you really shouldn't mumble. Because I can't hear a word you're saying. Now, on with the tour. ..."

 

[af7850]

Somebody please tell me if I'm just being an ass... somebody besides jeff.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Yes, there was certainly a question of integrity. The quote was borrowed from Gene Wilder, but it is certainly relevant. Let me explain...



Here you state that an individual without ISA Cert needs to prove that they are "not a hack", inferring that one who does have ISA Cert does not have to prove themselves, presumably because possession of the Cert is itself proof.

I say that you are wrong. The fact that ISA Certified hacks do exist proves that knowledge of proper practice does not preclude an individual from being a hack. I say that integrity is the equally important factor in determining pro from hack, and as integrity is a function of character - not intellect - it cannot be measured by a written test.

So tell me, where is integrity measured(bred)? In the character(heart) of a person or in the intellect(head)? Get it?

"Uh, you really shouldn't mumble. Because I can't hear a word you're saying. Now, on with the tour. ..."

You are making no sense- ie: A person with a drivers license is a good and qualified driver? I know the hacks exists, why dump on ISA for it? Why not dump on the DMV for giving out drivers license's to those that pass. Ease up and all will be alright.
Jeff

 

[clearance]

Integrity and the ISA? What?

Some individuals who happen to be ISA certified have it, but the ISA, no.

Integrity means doing what you say, and they want money, and will turn a blind eye to what they say. As many know, who have followed the sordid behavior of some ISA types that I have posted about on here over the last few years.

Anyways, this thread is progressing much like I predicted in post #2.

Pretty devastating post there ChiHD, very well said.

 

[Bigus Termitius]

Ode to Happiness!

It's simple.... like anything, it is what you make of it.

It all seems relatively cheap to me.

How ironic it is to have tree guys complaining about the price of doing biz, when we are the ones usually giving out the sticker shock.

 

[ChiHD]

It's simple.... like anything, it is what you make of it.


How ironic it is to have tree guys complaining about the price of doing biz, when we are the ones usually giving out the sticker shock.

This is true but our prices as an industry don't seem to have gone up since the 80's while our expenses have. Thanks to all the hacks working for beer money while the rest of us struggle to pay overhead costs ie. payroll expenses, insurance, workers comp...all that stuff that gets in the way of profit!!


Maybe we are the dumb ones!! ISA's prices and fees are definately higher, but probably more due to having a monopoly on arborist certification instead of cheaper unqualified competition!

 

[treeseer]

This is true but our prices as an industry don't seem to have gone up since the 80's

:jawdrop:

 

[ChiHD]

:jawdrop:

:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Ekka]

My comments in red

Why is recert such a big expense for you? Maybe because you spent 3 years goofing off. Here we go again, has to get nasty, personal and below the belt. Getting legit CEU's is not huge expense, or you can go the cheap route getting sketchy info like that online article site. And again, seems you put down a few sites and people except the ISA, serves your monotonous diet of regurgitated ISA material. There's thousands of universities globally that do research with trees and plants, which until some-one in the ISA borrows, re-badges and sends down the line you miss out on. You're well behind the 8 ball on many issues Guy because you require 1 regime' to educate you.

I get a LOT of quality referrals from the ISA site, which costs me nothing. Really, in my experience there's two types of referrals. One is where they search for an arborist/tree service and get you (could even be a links page) and the other is where inbound calls from the public get given your details. Now this second one is interesting because there's no transparency and the boys club hog the cream for themselves. Lots of idle beyotching here, again and again. :deadhorse: Interesting how again you have to vilify open discussion and put people down who think differently to you, frankly the ISA is a business, and it's like a religion that's escaped the USA borders.

 

[VL07]

Your level 5, isn't that regurgitated material too? What makes your system better that ISA's? Whoever gives you the level 5 makes a profit correct? You probibly have incompatent level 5's on your councels if you look. All systems have good & bad points...let it go.

 

[VL07]

oke:

 

[Ekka]

My comments in red

Your level 5, isn't that regurgitated material too? Understand the definition of regurgitated. ISA gets material from say Coder, slams their logo all over it and sends it down the pipeline. We tend to go to the source. What makes your system better that ISA's? That's easy, for one it's assessment based, means doing not ticking boxes in a process of elimination. By the way beyond level 3 T/F and multiple choice is forbidden but it's a poor way to assess anyway. It's about the doing and competency. Most trades people need to be able to do the job not talk about it or answer questions about it .... this is a hands on job.
Whoever gives you the level 5 makes a profit correct? No-one gives you a level 5, you study and earn it. You have a large choice of places to go including govt run TAFE's. I doubt TAFE's make a profit though. You probibly have incompatent level 5's on your councels if you look. I work with a few councils and too often the problem we face is dealing with degree qualified ecologists, for most parts the council arborists tend to be pretty good, but some decisions are made beyond them via politics and councillors. All systems have good & bad points...let it go. I never had anything to let anything go, it's discussion and the thread is about ISA, gets me stuffed why people bother discussing anything with that type of attitude.

 

[VL07]

I'm with you on the assessment based testing...ISA should have assessment based testing.

I earned my ISA cert too, no one gave it to me... I think your system produces quality arborist, and believe ISA should follow some of the examples in your system.

ISA is choosing volume over quality...not good.

 

[Ekka]

Doesn't ISA's climbing cert do practical assessment?

I also think the Master Arb is a more involved process with copies of reports etc to be reviewed. So the ISA people here would have to clarify the depth of qualifications.

Our system is being revamped a little and we are going to end up with only Level 3 and Level 5, the current level 2 and level 4 will be gone, which frankly the writing has been on the wall about anyway.

Within our system you select from mandatory units and top up with optional units, it does mean some tailor making and varied results however a copy of all units of competency is issued and that's what employers/customers should look for. You can do individual units of competency if required, like chainsaw safety and procedures, small tree felling, large tree felling etc. But again it's competency based training so you need to show proof that you can do the job or fell that leaning hollow tree.