Milled the 26' Douglas Fir 8 X 12 beam today

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You suck, you know that? :buttkick:

I'd almost rather have the quad! With this machine everything is more work than play.

One trick that we've started doing is to do the top cut first, then bottom cut second. Keep the bottom slab and cant in place while you do the side cuts. What you end up with then is three D shaped offcuts that are already edged.

The only one you'll need to edge is the first top cut. This saves two extra setups of vertical cuts.
 
I'd almost rather have the quad! With this machine everything is more work than play.

One trick that we've started doing is to do the top cut first, then bottom cut second. Keep the bottom slab and cant in place while you do the side cuts. What you end up with then is three D shaped offcuts that are already edged.

The only one you'll need to edge is the first top cut. This saves two extra setups of vertical cuts.

Normally I edge my slabs with the circular saw if it's under 3" thick. With a narrow-kerf Freud Diablo blade, it cuts faster than a chainsaw with much less waste, and it's faster to set up. Then they go through the tablesaw to take the other side off. These ones might be a bit on the long side for the tablesaw though!
 
Nice beam ! But Judging by the look of that log and the fact that the slab was curling up, chances are shes goina twist on ya abit . Your likly not buildin fine furniture with it so its likly going to work out.

Good job!

There are two kinds of spiral twist, one of which is acceptable for building purposes, while the other may produce major distortions with potential for structural problems. If the twist runs counter to the sun (i.e., right hand),the old-time dictum of the Bavarian carpenter was that this wood would retain its shape when felled. If it runs with the sun, however (i.e., left hand), the bundles of fibers attempt to twist back during drying and in the dried state.This process, which may go on for years, is so powerful that it may force log walls out of plumb and loosen or even force apart roof framing.

Hermann Phelps.
The craft of log Building. (1982)

If the but is towards the camera in the bark less picture it looks like your going against the sun. So it should stay pretty good according to the Bavarian carpenters ;)
It would be interesting to know if it moves over time.
 
Hope he's correct!
When I see them slabs curling up when I saw It makes me think!
Timber bound!
 
There are two kinds of spiral twist, one of which is acceptable for building purposes, while the other may produce major distortions with potential for structural problems. If the twist runs counter to the sun (i.e., right hand),the old-time dictum of the Bavarian carpenter was that this wood would retain its shape when felled. If it runs with the sun, however (i.e., left hand), the bundles of fibers attempt to twist back during drying and in the dried state.This process, which may go on for years, is so powerful that it may force log walls out of plumb and loosen or even force apart roof framing.

Hermann Phelps.
The craft of log Building. (1982)

If the but is towards the camera in the bark less picture it looks like your going against the sun. So it should stay pretty good according to the Bavarian carpenters ;)
It would be interesting to know if it moves over time.
Most of the knowledgeable log craftsmen I know say he's full of crapola.

First of all, Hermann Phelps wrote his book in the 40s, not the 80s. I have heard this twist is nothing more than a wives tale, and it continues to get passed on...Also, it was written in German and translated, so some of the translation could be off from what was meant in reality. Robert Chambers also preaches about this twist, most likely from reading it in Phelp's book, but he continues to pass it along as well...

Ask yourself, why in the world would a tree that has spiral going in one direction, not have the same tendency to do the same in the other direction? I believe it's wives tales also.
 
There are two kinds of spiral twist, one of which is acceptable for building purposes, while the other may produce major distortions with potential for structural problems. If the twist runs counter to the sun (i.e., right hand),the old-time dictum of the Bavarian carpenter was that this wood would retain its shape when felled. If it runs with the sun, however (i.e., left hand), the bundles of fibers attempt to twist back during drying and in the dried state.This process, which may go on for years, is so powerful that it may force log walls out of plumb and loosen or even force apart roof framing.

Hermann Phelps.
The craft of log Building. (1982)

If the but is towards the camera in the bark less picture it looks like your going against the sun. So it should stay pretty good according to the Bavarian carpenters ;)
It would be interesting to know if it moves over time.


So how can you tell if it's right or left twist when the bark is on? I have been cutting down a lot of fir lately and it is hard to tell when the bark is on. The furrows in the bark don't seem to follow the twist. :givebeer:
 
Most of the knowledgeable log craftsmen I know say he's full of crapola.

First of all, Hermann Phelps wrote his book in the 40s, not the 80s. I have heard this twist is nothing more than a wives tale, and it continues to get passed on...Also, it was written in German and translated, so some of the translation could be off from what was meant in reality. Robert Chambers also preaches about this twist, most likely from reading it in Phelp's book, but he continues to pass it along as well...

Ask yourself, why in the world would a tree that has spiral going in one direction, not have the same tendency to do the same in the other direction? I believe it's wives tales also.

Perhaps the rule is reversed in the southern hemisphere
 
This twist thing is interesting. I don't get the sun method method for working out twist - someone care to explain this?

Here in Oz we say that if the grain twists to the right going up - then leave it, if it twists to the left going up it'll be OK to mill, but I have no idea how real this is. As I walk through old growth forest I definitely see more twisted than straight old trees left behind.
 
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Most of the knowledgeable log craftsmen I know say he's full of crapola.

Ask yourself, why in the world would a tree that has spiral going in one direction, not have the same tendency to do the same in the other direction? I believe it's wives tales also.

Traditional......I'm not going to bite my tongue on this one, but I also don't intend on flaming you, enlighten you maybe.
You strike me as the kind of guy who believes old guys (dead or alive) didn't know anything about anything (not just this post). I don't know anything about spiral twist...but...how many of your knowledgeable craftsmen you know...wrote a book? Felt so strongly about a concept that they tried hard to pass on the valuable information to future generations (ahh...that's you). Maybe they were wrong...but chances are pretty good, they proved this fact over and over again somehow.
Maybe you're asking yourself the wrong question...Instead of just believing (with one - two minutes of thought) it's a load of crap because a few guys in your geographic area don't understand..figure out why these old guys thought it was fact. By your own admission, more than one guy went out of his way to publish what they thought were facts (ya...maybe plagiarism but also...maybe not). There must be some truth to it all...something...even if it turns out to be only certain types of trees....soil content, local geographical anomaly. Publishing information in those days took a lot more work, and money, with little return other than the satisfaction of knowing they are 'helping you'... than typing on a forum today.
 
Traditional......I'm not going to bite my tongue on this one, but I also don't intend on flaming you, enlighten you maybe.
You strike me as the kind of guy who believes old guys (dead or alive) didn't know anything about anything (not just this post). I don't know anything about spiral twist...but...how many of your knowledgeable craftsmen you know...wrote a book? Felt so strongly about a concept that they tried hard to pass on the valuable information to future generations (ahh...that's you). Maybe they were wrong...but chances are pretty good, they proved this fact over and over again somehow.
Maybe you're asking yourself the wrong question...Instead of just believing (with one - two minutes of thought) it's a load of crap because a few guys in your geographic area don't understand..figure out why these old guys thought it was fact. By your own admission, more than one guy went out of his way to publish what they thought were facts (ya...maybe plagiarism but also...maybe not). There must be some truth to it all...something...even if it turns out to be only certain types of trees....soil content, local geographical anomaly. Publishing information in those days took a lot more work, and money, with little return other than the satisfaction of knowing they are 'helping you'... than typing on a forum today.
No, so far there hasn't been anything proven that backs up what Phelps wrote about twist, and there was a study done in Montana.

The only correlation most people can find is that medieval Christianity associated anything "left" with Satan, while the things "right" where righteous.

The one single study that has been done in Montana determined that "most" trees that started out with a left hand spiral, either straightened or turned right. Most is key and why I quoted it, because some stayed the same. The conclusion was that the grain became straighter and produced a stronger log in the end as the grain did actually straighten.

There is nothing in the grading rules about left hand vs. right hand twist, if this was such a phenomena, why is it that it was left out of the grading rules? The wood handbook (I linked to in another thread) doesn't mention anything about left or right hand twist, nor does Hoadley in Understanding Wood. Why do you believe a book that states it from the 40s?

Most of the knowledgeable log craftsmen I know build with logs and don't write books at all. Most could write a book though. What's your point? These are craftsman that do not live in my area, but thousands of miles away. They have built great homes. How many log structures have you built? How many logs have you peeled and crafted into anything? Believe what you want, it won't change my thinking on this subject, I don't believe there is any difference between left and right have twist until someone can prove it.
 
Traditional, Well...I'd like to take back 1/2 of what I said. Sorry. Looks like you have spent more than 2-3 minutes on the subject. I didn't suggest to blindly 'believe' something in print, but to deeply consider why it was deemed important enough 'to' print in that era. The fact that it is in print tells me it's more than just a footnote. The fact that it doesn't show up in literature of today tells me there is no conclusive evidence to make a rule, or it happens so infrequently that it's not worth bothering with. That doesn't prove the phenomenon doesn't exist.
So now we're getting somewhere. Twist direction affects strength...but doesn't happen enough to be statistically relevant. The montana study was deemed non conclusive (in order to create a rule regarding grade....for the USA). That doesn't mean an individual cannot use the twist method to locate or reject a different strength material. Just because 'today' a few studies cannot prove it conclusively.
Lots of people 'could' write a book..and it's much easier today. You must really feel strongly about it to actually do it though. Big difference....bigger difference in years past.
I cannot get into a pissing contest with you since I've seen (photos around here)the 'houses' you have built. I have however completed two what I would call cabins (20X 10), (24x12). Yup..peeled a lot of bark with a hatchet, yup..actually made stuff out of trees..hardwood ones to boot. Admittedly not in your league but I'm not a novice either...I didn't have a BSM, it was CSM and come along.
None of that however changes that though you will wait for someone to prove to you something, I'll see if I cannot understand why it used to be so important. Twist could equal strength is all I've got so far.
 
TT. Does this apply to beams as well ? In the past I have cut some FOHC fir beams that have split apart. I can't remember if they were left or right but maybe it was ring shake instead. This sort of thing does not seem to matter as much for logs as it would for beams. I have some fir to cut into FOHC this spring I will have to pay more attention.
 
Traditional, Well...I'd like to take back 1/2 of what I said. Sorry. Looks like you have spent more than 2-3 minutes on the subject.
I have spent a fair amount of time discussing this with 3 different log craftsmen, all of which have been building log homes for 25+ years. My mentor has been building for 31+ years. These are people that have been around this craft for much of the time since it has come back with Mackie's revival in the 70s.

This is a subject talked about amongst log craftsmen, especially since Robert Chambers started to preach such thoughts on the subject, as I suggested above.

Nobody I know believes that twist is any different either way, left or right. Consequently I don't believe it either, not only because of their views/opinions, but because it doesn't make sense.
I didn't suggest to blindly 'believe' something in print, but to deeply consider why it was deemed important enough 'to' print in that era.
Trust me when I say this has been thought about much more deeply by more knowledgeable craftsman than myself. Further, I have not read the Phelps book and consider Mackie to be a much better guide to building. Keep in mind that the Phelps book was written in a foreign language and translated to English. That is primarily why I have no desire to read much of it, the translation could be bad in many area (I see that all the time with Japanese and English, as my wife is Japanese).
So now we're getting somewhere. Twist direction affects strength...but doesn't happen enough to be statistically relevant. The montana study was deemed non conclusive (in order to create a rule regarding grade....for the USA). That doesn't mean an individual cannot use the twist method to locate or reject a different strength material. Just because 'today' a few studies cannot prove it conclusively.
I think your missing one of the most important points though. This is not whether twist is good or bad, this is about one twist being ok and the other twist not, that's pooey, IMO. No question given the choice of using trees without twist vs trees with twist, most all craftsmen would pick the straight grain any day of the week. I know that I would myself.
I cannot get into a pissing contest with you since I've seen (photos around here)the 'houses' you have built.
First, I have not built a lot of homes, and building my first, so you might be misunderstand something. I do know craftsmen that have built 100s of homes. It shouldn't need to be a p!$$ing contest, IMO, I am merely presenting facts. The Montana study is the only study anyone I have talked to knows about, and the study was only done on lodgepole pine. Most sawyers/craftsmen know that most species react differently, SYP as an example has an extraordinary amount of twist, with enough force to push entire log walls up. What I'm saying is that it should also be taken with as large a grain of salt as reading Phelp's book which dates back to the 40s. I have another book from the 40s that recommends creosote for staining log homes, so just because it is/was in print means nothing, it is a known fact that creosote is harmful.
None of that however changes that though you will wait for someone to prove to you something, I'll see if I cannot understand why it used to be so important. Twist could equal strength is all I've got so far.
Please do find the reason, I will wait to hear your reply. I have spent a fair amount of time on it and can't find anything conclusive.
TT. Does this apply to beams as well ? In the past I have cut some FOHC fir beams that have split apart. I can't remember if they were left or right but maybe it was ring shake instead. This sort of thing does not seem to matter as much for logs as it would for beams. I have some fir to cut into FOHC this spring I will have to pay more attention.
It has to do with all wood in general, and how the beam is cut will determine some of that. If you look at the beam that was cut in this thread, it wouldn't meet grade as it has a split from the end up about 5 or 6 feet from the looks of it, and even grade #2 is not allowed that type of split on the end. In order to allow that timber to meet grade, the entire split would need to be cut off, so you would loose at least half the timber.

In regards to cants/beams, in Hoadley's book he talks about Hemlock that was used for the floor of a home he was living in. He doesn't put anything positive on the fact that left would be any different than right, only mentions that some wood has a tendency to twist. Where the Phelps text says that left hand twist is bad but right is ok.
 
Brad's Beam

Brad what a great thread.I didn't know you had that project going on up in the North Country.For me the pictures with the write up made it easy to follow,as I do not know anything about the topic of milling.Keep up the good work!
Lawrence
 
No, so far there hasn't been anything proven that backs up what Phelps wrote about twist, and there was a study done in Montana.

The only correlation most people can find is that medieval Christianity associated anything "left" with Satan, while the things "right" where righteous.


There is nothing in the grading rules about left hand vs. right hand twist, if this was such a phenomena, why is it that it was left out of the grading rules? The wood handbook (I linked to in another thread) doesn't mention anything about left or right hand twist, nor does Hoadley in Understanding Wood. Why do you believe a book that states it from the 40s?

LOL the crazy Evangelical types still have that left/right paranoia going on.

I'm only ticketed to grade structural lumber and "commons" (1" fencing, sheathing, siding etc.) so I don't know anything about grading beams per se. I do have the materials and info and have glanced over it a couple times, but it wasn't taught in the grading courses up here because there's no demand for it. I do remember the instructor telling us that if a Douglas Fir is twisted one way it will only be in the outer few inches of wood, but if it twists the other way it will be like that right to the heart. I can't remember which direction was which, and I certainly don't know if it's a fact or not. Having said that, I've cut many a big Fir for firewood, and some are twisted right through to the pith, while others have a "layer" of twisted wood a few inches thick with perfectly straight, normal wood inside. Don't ask me what it means! :help: My hypothesis is that the more severe type of twist is just an inherent defect in the tree due to either genetics or environment, so it's affected from the time it starts growing, while the other is the result of an injury etc. that the tree survived; perhaps a lightning strike or something.

It has to do with all wood in general, and how the beam is cut will determine some of that. If you look at the beam that was cut in this thread, it wouldn't meet grade as it has a split from the end up about 5 or 6 feet from the looks of it, and even grade #2 is not allowed that type of split on the end. In order to allow that timber to meet grade, the entire split would need to be cut off, so you would loose at least half the timber.

Err... You're talking about the little 6X6 post that I milled later in this thread, not the big beam I milled at the beginning, right? Because there isn't even a hint of a crack anywhere in that one! That 6X6 will just be used as a general support and/or skid around the yard to hold things up off the ground so its integrity isn't a big issue. However, I've yet to see a well-dried timber / beam / post that never developed any cracks or splits, so exactly how does one go about producing merchantable pieces in that case? Especially box-heart, which always gets at least one good crack right to the center somewhere.
 
LOL the crazy Evangelical types still have that left/right paranoia going on.
:D
I do remember the instructor telling us that if a Douglas Fir is twisted one way it will only be in the outer few inches of wood, but if it twists the other way it will be like that right to the heart.
Would like to know more about that.
My hypothesis is that the more severe type of twist is just an inherent defect in the tree due to either genetics or environment, so it's affected from the time it starts growing, while the other is the result of an injury etc. that the tree survived; perhaps a lightning strike or something.
That makes sense but certainly couldn't relate to right or left, IMO.
Err... You're talking about the little 6X6 post that I milled later in this thread, not the big beam I milled at the beginning, right?
Oh, thanks for pointing that out, I thought it was the same beam turned over. Now I see it is quite a bit smaller.
However, I've yet to see a well-dried timber / beam / post that never developed any cracks or splits, so exactly how does one go about producing merchantable pieces in that case? Especially box-heart, which always gets at least one good crack right to the center somewhere.
I have also heard that box heart is hard to dry, I guess I'll get some experience with that soon. Per the grading rules, I thought only splits were allowed inside the cant, and not to the ends? Do you know if that is so? I'm no grader, but trying to learn. I need to cut some #2 or better for the rafters.
 
:I have also heard that box heart is hard to dry, I guess I'll get some experience with that soon. Per the grading rules, I thought only splits were allowed inside the cant, and not to the ends? Do you know if that is so? I'm no grader, but trying to learn. I need to cut some #2 or better for the rafters.

If you cut box heart beams they will likely split to the center. I have seen were timber framers will put a saw cut the length of the post to control the crack in a box heart post or beam on the hidden side. If you cut free of heart center (FOHC) cracking will likely be reduced. This is were twist direction is supposed to come in. I have cut doug fir box heart beams and they almost always split. I have cut FOHC doug fir it seems the crack less most of the time than box heart.

I am try to learn how to cut straight crack free posts and beams. This is good info for my next beam milling project.
 
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