Mods make a saw run richer not leaner

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I know you think plug color is good indicator, but I put little value in them other than "too rich", "o.k." and "way too lean" . "O.K." is a huge range. "too lean" isn't part of my scale as it overlaps with "o.k".

Actually, I put little stock in the color of my plugs unless I saw that one looked lean. IMHO, it's just a confirmation that it's not too lean. I'd much rather tune by ear and a stop watch. The spark plug method just seems to subjective to me. Most people also don't realize you have to read the color wat down at the bottom of the porcelian where you probably need a magnifying glass to read it.
 
Used to tune cars with an EGT. It's tricky because, if you go real rich or low timing, the temp shoots way up. Also, the EGt goes down when you detonate due to the fact the piston is taken all the heat away from the EGT.
 
I have recently changed my perception of tuning for RPM, with a "happy medium" in torque.
The Dolmar 7900 build got me thinking and got me playing around with settings.
I have always fine tuned with the L screw, but I more or less now base my tuning completly with the L screw and fine tune with the H. I still get plenty of rpms from a reliable work saw, but I am getting more low end (fuel power). I am tuning in the wood, rather than out of it. I know, it is what I should have been doing all along, but now, I could care less about a saw that runs at 14.5 outta the wood, I would rather burry a bar at 12k in the wood. I am still getting my limbing RPM, but a better saw on the stump - not by changing my port work, but by tuning.
But to Brad's topic on hand, I think a modded saw makes it run leaner and richer, it just depends which end of the spectrum you wanna be on. More air flow along with more fuel, to do with it what you want.
What else would you need?
 
Brad, another 084 question: I'm curious if you're running the .90mm jet or the high altitude .88mm jet. Have you ever experimented with both?
 
I have no idea what jet's in it. It's the latest 7A or whatever carb with the Intellicarb setup.

Only reason I wondered is because my 084 will not seize up past 10,000. I've replaced the f/w, coil, HT-7A, and spark plug (all parts new). I've checked the metering arm on the carb and it's flush with the base.
I'm running the .90mm jet and now I believe I need to try the .88mm jet to get it to turn up to 12,500 where it belongs.
 
Seriously?
Only 25 degrees cooler than the pistonmeltingly hottest reading you can achieve?
I'd be tempted to try it, but I don't want to weld a threaded pipe fitting to the muffler for the k-probe.

I actually have one of these sitting new in the box, bought it on eBay a few years ago for about 1/2 of the price shown here.

I just randomly chose 25F as it is exactly what I did in planes... lean out to peak EGT, then 25 richer.... Oh... it's often about 1400F or so... That gives you best power, a detonation reserve, and min gas at that power and altitude. The interesting correlation to to watch the fuel flow change relative to the egt...

Then you get into the problem where the POS Turbo 0-360 Continental in an Arrow would indicate cylinder head overheat so you'd have to richen up more anyhow. Sucks having 9.x gallons per hour optimal burn, then needing to richen up to 12+ to keep the engine cooler...

Personally.. I'd experiment an little;)
 
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Yes, that makes sense, richen the lowspeed up and the HS ends up needing a CCW adjustment on the needle. However in real world more fuel is being pumped in. With a reasonable increase to muffler opening, low speed contributes about 25% of the total fuel at full RPM, also seen this on 026 experimenting with muffler opening size.
 
Again, I wan't technically clear in my last post. No, the saws not burning less fuel, so it's not leaned out. What I'm trying to say is that I often have to turn the H needle in well past 1 turn out for a proper tune. And the H needle setting is not as far out as a stock saw. But also as mentioned, the L needle will be farther out. Like Brian said, WOT fuel is a combination of the fuel from the L and the H. They are not independent at WOT. I don't think H adjustment affects idle at all though.
 
I think the confusion may have started right from the thread title?

Mods make a saw run richer not leaner

Saw is still requiring more fuel with mods, but in some cases the HS jet needs to be leaned to balance the fuel curve.

Your right in saying high speed does not contribute at idle, there is very little velocity past the main jet at idle so next to no pressure drop there, the pressure drop is across the throttle plate as it forms a second restriction acting like a much tighter venturi. In fact the screen in the the main jet serves a duel role (other than fuel break up at full speed) at idel the surface tension of the fuel on the screen or fiber disk in the main jet keeps it from leaking fuel into the bore throwing low speed off or leading to fuel pooling.
 
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Screw it.. Just use Stihl IEM.. Mod the muffler, carb adjusts; Mod the cylinder, carb adjusts..:greenchainsaw:


Only on the MS280 today... others soon...
 
tuning the transfers/milling the head on a bike wants you to put a bigger carb on it.


interesting B

Also is it possible after the mods the efficiency of combustion has increased thus no need to richen the H.


Awesome thread.

From a rookie's perspective, I think these fellas hit it on the nose. Their ideas make me think of a turbo(in this case a larger carb for more air, not necessarily more fuel). They pump a ton of air into the venturis, they run efficiently and best of all, burn less fuel. If the exhaust(can) on a chainsaw is opened up, the spent gases are exiting much faster that maybe there is a need for less fuel. Those spent gases don't have to travel as far as say if it was piped. I would suspect if it was piped, then you would then have to fatten it up.

Out of curiosity, is there a similar situation for "floating valves" on two-strokes?
 
If the exhaust(can) on a chainsaw is opened up, the spent gases are exiting much faster that maybe there is a need for less fuel.?

:monkey:

If they exit faster even less is burned... which is why the EPA makes the exit get smaller.
 
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This post brings to light that most folks have a mis-understanding about the way a carburetor works. The airflow through the venturi (essentially the top surface of an airfoil formed into a circle) does not "suck" fuel into the airstream. The fuel passes through a jet into the airflow because of a pressure differential in either a float bowl or metering chamber. A paint spray gun or airbrush works on the same principal.

Yes, I agree, like when people say an engine sucks. It really doesn't, when the piston moves down, creates low pressure area, and the outside air at atmospheric pressure rushes in. This is why a engine runs with more power at sea level then High altitudes.

Talk about opening a cano-worms though Brad ha ha ha. Great discussion though.
 
Their ideas make me think of a turbo(in this case a larger carb for more air, not necessarily more fuel). They pump a ton of air into the venturis, they run efficiently and best of all, burn less fuel. If the exhaust(can) on a chainsaw is opened up, the spent gases are exiting much faster that maybe there is a need for less fuel. Those spent gases don't have to travel as far as say if it was piped. I would suspect if it was piped, then you would then have to fatten it up.
Out of curiosity, is there a similar situation for "floating valves" on two-strokes?

Trying not to come off harsh here, but there is not one fully correct statement in this IMHO, well maybe the last one sort of it's a question.

If a large carb flows more air, it must also supply more fuel or else the mixture goes lean and engine overheats.

They pump a ton of air into the venturis, they run efficiently and best of all, burn less fuel

A bigger carb does not run more efficiently, in fact after a certain point air velocity drops so much the fuel break-up is ineffective leading an unevenly and incompleatly mixed charge and poor combustion.

If the exhaust(can) on a chainsaw is opened up, the spent gases are exiting much faster

No, as the volume of gas is more or less the same the bigger the outlet hole the sooner and more compleatly the muffler can empty each cycle, but the velocity of exiting gas will be lower as the same gas volume exits the muffler backed by the same pressure, but through a bigger hole.

the spent gases are exiting much faster that maybe there is a need for less fuel.

No, with a more open exhaust there is more intermixing of clean air drawn in through the muffler and exhaust mixing with new charge. This shows up at low RPM mostly and is why the low speed must be richened to make up for the air ingress from the muffler. This may be an advantage exhaust pipes or tubes have in mufflers over open hole designs.

Those spent gases don't have to travel as far as say if it was piped. I would suspect if it was piped, then you would then have to fatten it up.

A properly tuned pipe will bolt on most times with no adjustment to mixture. I don't see how the distance gas travels has anything to do with mixture, if anything a long outlet will block freash air from getting to the motor from the exhaust side and and actually the motor may run a little rich with a longer exaust path and need leaning if anything.

Out of curiosity, is there a similar situation for "floating valves" on two-strokes?
in a way yes, but rather than valves not fully closing it's more like valves not fully opening. If there is insufficient blowdown time due to high RPM or too much backpressure on the exhaust cylinder pressure is too high when the transfers open and the pressure in the base is insufficient to overcome this residual pressure and move up into the cylinder. This would then be almost like an intake valve on a four stroke that was not opening fully limiting cylinder filling.
 
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Yes, I agree, like when people say an engine sucks. It really doesn't, when the piston moves down, creates low pressure area, and the outside air at atmospheric pressure rushes in. This is why a engine runs with more power at sea level then High altitudes.

This is a pedantic non-point. Suction is just fluid flow due to creating an area of lower-than-atmospheric pressure. That is the definition of the term. So, yes, an engine "sucks". As does a carburetor or a vacuum cleaner, or someone drinking a milkshake, or...

Unless you want to redefine what "sucks" means...? :confused:

:sucks:
 
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