More bad luck

[mountainlake]

Steve....I'd say...recommended service limits and inspections would save more of them.

Hmm...Time to vent. Why does it seem that hard working saws only seem to get maintenance after they destruct and are scrap?
You know....pistons/rings have service limits. The weight savings we get with a 2 stroke means you have a lower service limit for piston and ring replacement (than say....a low rpm 4 stroke). You could measure it in hours...or take it apart and measure..inspect the B/C. If the piston looks good (ie visually AND measures out to still be within spec)...put a new ring(s) on it and go for another 25 hrs. It's not like it's a weekend to pull it apart and check (like other engines). If you don't 'bother' to do this...don't be shocked when it stops and the saw is scrap, or start looking to see if it's a known weak point. It's much easier...and cheaper to 'maintain' your saw rather than replace it...start the research now, while your saw is still running and replace the parts that are known to not last as many hours as people had hoped. I don't see too much discussion on ring end gap, piston ring or skirt clearance numbers, burn patterns, hours running vs ring end gap...lots of photos of destruction though.

Kicker......I don't mean to be disrespectful here....but I know your blown crank bearings would have made a hell of a noise...and major vibration before they let go....and this is your second catastrophic failure in as many months!! I sure hope someone else was running it at the time...they really should have shut it down before it stopped. Do you replace piston and rings based on the amount of fuel through the saw or do you have an hour meter like some people here? I hope you have some 'system'...or I'd expect the rest of your equipment to blow up soon (they will after all...only run for so long without replacement parts).
Con rod failures are 'usually' either way too many hours (past service limit) or oil related.

Yes, properly tuned and maintained sure helps but chainsaw milling is hard on saws, if I had huge logs I'd get one but for smaller logs there are quite a few bandsaws that don't cost much and should last a long time without a lot of expence. Plus all the extra lumber you get would pay for that bandsaw in short order if you sold it. Steve

 

[Andrew96]

Yes, properly tuned and maintained sure helps but chainsaw milling is hard on saws

Steve....well I disagree. I think running the saw wide open, in a long heavy cut is close enough to being the same as bucking a tree...when you measure it by the number of 'hours' it was running wide open...or the amount of fuel through it. Yup...milling can work them hard...but I feel it's about working the saw longer....people just count days out with the saw rather than working hours, then wonder why it won't last years...like their limbing saw.

Yes...same discussion about CSM vs BSM. Each has it's pros and cons...it's not just about initial cost...or the cost of maintenance.

 

[BobL]

Steve....well I disagree. I think running the saw wide open, in a long heavy cut is close enough to being the same as bucking a tree...

Actually there is quite a bit of difference. Bucking a 2 ft diam x 10 ft long log log into 1 ft long blocks = 31 sq ft of cutting.

Now take that same 10 ft long log and cut 11 x 2" slabs and thats 174 sq ft of cutting or 560% more - that is a really big difference in my book. Even if those blocks are quartered that adds only 40 more sq ft.

I do agree that many saws can be better maintained than they are and very few owners for example stick to the 2000 hours for ring replacement.

 

[mtngun]

Why does it seem that hard working saws only seem to get maintenance after they destruct and are scrap?

So ........ are we supposed to change the oil at regular intervals ? Check the air in the tires ?

Most of my saws were previously owned, so I have no idea how many hours they have on the crank, etc.. Very few of us keep track of the operating hours on our saws (nice thing about the tach on my milling saw is that automatically logs the hours). The surprising thing is how FEW hours the saw actually runs in a day. Most of the time it sits idle while I am setting up and moving stuff around. The milling saw may only run 2 hours in an 8 hour day.

Now that I have a tach, I check carb tuning frequently. After every full day of sawing, I clean the air filter and check muffler bolts (they like to rattle loose). About once a year, I pull the fuel filter from the gas tank and blow it out.

If the saw is not running right, I investigate further. A compression check is a quick and simple indicator of piston and ring health. If it has good compression, there is no need to tear the engine down to measure clearances.

When the circlip broke, there was no warning, no noise. It was as if someone hit the kill switch.

On the day the saw swallowed sawdust, it began the day with a freshly cleaned air filter. There was no noise, no warning, and it never actually stopped running. It just bogged down easily -- and even that was not particularly unusual, since it has ALWAYS bogged down easily. However, I could tell by the resistance on the starter cord that compression was low, and when I took the air filter off, I found massive sawdust leakage past the filter.

I fail to see how any of the engine failures that I have experienced could have been prevented by routine preventive maintenance. Stuff happens. Saw engines are not very forgiving.

 

[Kicker_92]

Kicker......I don't mean to be disrespectful here....but I know your blown crank bearings would have made a hell of a noise...and major vibration before they let go....and this is your second catastrophic failure in as many months!! I sure hope someone else was running it at the time...they really should have shut it down before it stopped. Do you replace piston and rings based on the amount of fuel through the saw or do you have an hour meter like some people here? I hope you have some 'system'...or I'd expect the rest of your equipment to blow up soon (they will after all...only run for so long without replacement parts).
Con rod failures are 'usually' either way too many hours (past service limit) or oil related.

No noise, no warning, just bogged the seized.

If loggers had to open up this saw every 25 hours to check the rings and piston, it would be completely unacceptable. I haven't heard of anyone other than racing that would do that on a motor.

Sure, regular maintenance is expected like fuel / air filters, spark plugs, etc. Rings are checked with compression, and I measured 140 psi about 6 months ago. I don't blame the saw, it's been great! Just probably getting towards the end of it's service life when these types of parts start to go.

I'll looks at the 395xp option as a replacement, but I already have the MS880 for a big saw. This one just gets used for smaller slabs and edging with the 30" bar.

 

[olyman]

When the circlip broke, there was no warning, no noise. It was as if someone hit the kill switch.

tell me about that one--same thing happened on my 264 oly--sawing thru ash log--instant shut down--instant!!!! thought?????? have other saws!!! so--bout two months later tear down-------circlip broke--went up side of piston--jammed rings--and went out the exhaust!!! and never even left a mark on the jug!!!!! had another piston--put rings to it,runs like a bat now!!! i owned this saw since new--so factory clip--why broke????? who knows!!!!

 

[Brmorgan]

Even more than the total amount of wood cut or overall time spent at WOT is the issue of increased heat with milling. Holding a saw at WOT for 5+ minutes at a time is of course going to put a lot more wear and tear on a saw than running a few seconds at WOT followed by a few seconds' cooldown period, just like driving a car wide open for hours like in a race will kill an engine a lot faster than average Joe driving to work and back every day. I'm a believer that regular basic maintenance like bearing greasing and filter/fuel system cleaning will have a lot more longterm benefit and that perhaps parts will result in some parts lasting much longer than the "recommended" replacement schedule.

I agree though - I have no idea how many hours' use is on any of my equipment. I could probably make a ballpark guess, but really, I just try to listen to what my engines are trying to tell me. My 371 was low on compression back in December; it had always felt strong to pull but seemed to lose power more easily than I thought it should, turned out it was only blowing 125 PSI. So I checked the ring gap and it was over .050" - ideal is less than .010". A new ring and it's back in business at 150 PSI and cuts like a demon.

Last year I thought I had pooched my 066 out milling one day - it started acting up a bit with a jumpy idle and the like, and then a half hour later it just quit, instantly, and had literally zero compression. Turned out the spark plug had turned itself all the way out and finally popped right out. I was very lucky; somehow it survived that without leaning out too far and scoring.

 

[BobL]

Even more than the total amount of wood cut or overall time spent at WOT is the issue of increased heat with milling. Holding a saw at WOT for 5+ minutes at a time is of course going to put a lot more wear and tear on a saw than running a few seconds at WOT followed by a few seconds' cooldown period, just like driving a car wide open for hours like in a race will kill an engine a lot faster than average Joe driving to work and back every day.

Yep - I agree with that. Those few seconds between bucks make a big difference. Even though my temp gauge says the temp is going up when coming of a hot run I know the cylinder and piston are being cooled by the unburnt gas.

 

[mtngun]

tell me about that one--same thing happened on my 264 oly--sawing thru ash log--instant shut down--instant!!!! thought?????? have other saws!!! so--bout two months later tear down-------circlip broke--went up side of piston--jammed rings--and went out the exhaust!!! and never even left a mark on the jug!!!!! had another piston--put rings to it,runs like a bat now!!! i owned this saw since new--so factory clip--why broke????? who knows!!!!

I wrote it up a couple of years ago. Actually, it was an 064 that I had bought on ebay advertised as an 066 (another story). The seller had rebuilt the saw just before ebaying it (how do you rebuild the saw and not know it is an 064 ?).

Anyway, the seller had used a Golf piston. Golfs of that era were known to have the circlip grooves cut too deeply. The circlip was swallowed up by the groove and the only thing preventing the pin from walking out was the ears on the circlip. You can imagine the pin bumping into the ears over and over again until they fatigued and broke off.

I think the root cause was the circlip groove being too deep. I have since used circlips with ears and not had any problems.

Dunno about your Oly -- Efcos aren't supposed to break, you know. :biggrinbounce2:

Seriously, chainsaws are just high maintenance, regardless of brand.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

There absolutely IS a place for CSM's, but when it comes to cost, i've always said... When you figure ALL the cost of owning a CSM, they really aren't much, if any cheaper than a BSM!

For instance, a Honds 13 on a BSM will last MANY years with just yearly oil changes, and make cut after cut, year after year at WOT... That motor will have no problem outlasting two big CSM power heads, and do it "quietly", on 1/5th the fuel, with no bar oil, no 2 stroke oil. Plus every 5th board off the BSM is FREE, as it isn't turned into sawdust like on a CSM. Resale is better on a BSM too...

Add all of that up over a few years, and that BSM isn't so expensive after all...

Really, as guys needs one of each kind of mill, to cover all the bases! lol

Rob

 

[MR4WD]

You can have either a lightweight cheap 2 stroke that cuts trees both sideways and vertically but blows up frequently, or you can have a heavy 4 stroke that will last forever, cost more and won't run sideways to cut a tree. I think most of us on this forum pick the CSM

 

[TraditionalTool]

You can have either a lightweight cheap 2 stroke that cuts trees both sideways and vertically but blows up frequently, or you can have a heavy 4 stroke that will last forever, cost more and won't run sideways to cut a tree. I think most of us on this forum pick the CSM

Funny thing though, most of those lightweight 2 strokes that are big enough to cut trees laying down are NOT that cheap...and often they do blow up...

For me, using a chainsaw mill is miserable, and in most cases costs as much as if one would have invested in a used bandmill to begin with. It's a good thing we all get to choose, since after all, it is our money that we end up spending on it.

Give me that heavy 4 stroke that will last forever any day of the week.

For the amount of sawdust you produce, CSMs are way over rated, IMO. And it's a good thing we can all have an opinion, as a lot of folks on here (the majority) seem to be happy with CSMs. You can have them.

 

[BobL]

Funny thing though, most of those lightweight 2 strokes that are big enough to cut trees laying down are NOT that cheap...and often they do blow up...

For me, using a chainsaw mill is miserable . . . . .

I can't see what's not to like.

Loud fully in your face noises, lots of smoke and gas fumes, screaming engines, engines blowing up and drinking beer. People pay a lot of money to experience this sort of thing.

Maybe I am a little crazy but I like the whole CSM process from A to Z. I probably like the process more than I like the output ie the lumber. From making the mill, using the milling process to fine tune it's operation, using some of the wood (well I have used very little of it directly so far), and then chewing the fat about it on AS. I like hand filing much more than using a grinder. Optimizing the cutter profile to make big chips out of some of our cast type iron wood is a challenge I really enjoy and I have to be able to do this without sweating too much otherwise I wouldn't be doing it.

One of the best parts is turning the freshly cut big slab and seeing the wood like it really is and will never be again.

The powerhead screams and echoes around the bush for 10-15 minutes and then there is silence for 15-20 minutes broken by just the sound of the wind or birds or the scrtch/scrtch/scrtch of the file touching up the cutters. Perhaps I like it because it reminds me of the many times I went as as kid with my dad into the bush when he was faller.

I am in absolutely no hurry - if I cut 3 slabs or 30 in a day I don't care as I already have more wood than I can poke a stick at. I have even milled stuff for people I know for a couple of good slabs and a few beers afterwards. If they want premium lumber out of their trees I tell them to get a swing miller in to do the job. I don't particularly care about the large amount of sawdust I generate because 90% of what I cut are falls that would rot in place or stuff that would otherwise end up in a chipper.

I agree, CSMing is a long way from being the most efficient way to get lumber out of a tree but accessing the wood is only one of my objectives. One thing I have found is the process is a very effective antidote against the pressures of line managing 65 people at my day job. I could go to a therapist for $150 an hour or I can do something I enjoy doing.

 

[olyman]

I wrote it up a couple of years ago. Actually, it was an 064 that I had bought on ebay advertised as an 066 (another story). The seller had rebuilt the saw just before ebaying it (how do you rebuild the saw and not know it is an 064 ?).

Anyway, the seller had used a Golf piston. Golfs of that era were known to have the circlip grooves cut too deeply. The circlip was swallowed up by the groove and the only thing preventing the pin from walking out was the ears on the circlip. You can imagine the pin bumping into the ears over and over again until they fatigued and broke off.

I think the root cause was the circlip groove being too deep. I have since used circlips with ears and not had any problems.

Dunno about your Oly -- Efcos aren't supposed to break, you know. :biggrinbounce2:

Seriously, chainsaws are just high maintenance, regardless of brand.

tell me--dang strange--as have always used correct oil mix--

 

[TraditionalTool]

Loud fully in your face noises, lots of smoke and gas fumes, screaming engines, engines blowing up and drinking beer. People pay a lot of money to experience this sort of thing.

I had to give 'ya some rep on that Bob...still, you can have it!

 

[Brmorgan]

I had to give 'ya some rep on that Bob...still, you can have it!

LOL Bob forgot to mention that a good full day of CSMing will lead to a full-blown hangover and headache just like the other activities he mentioned! I've had some killer morning-afters after a good milling day.

 

[TraditionalTool]

LOL Bob forgot to mention that a good full day of CSMing will lead to a full-blown hangover and headache just like the other activities he mentioned! I've had some killer morning-afters after a good milling day.

Brad,

I hate to say it, but you almost have to consume alcohol in order to tolerate it! :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[BobL]

I had to give 'ya some rep on that Bob...still, you can have it!

I know I'm in a minority, but I'll take it.

 

[TraditionalTool]

I know I'm in a minority, but I'll take it.

I'll tell 'ya something...sometimes it could be worth putting up with to get some usable wood to build with, I will say that...about 5 years ago I saw a guy mill up an elm tree into 8/4 slabs and was shocked at the amount of wood he got from a single tree using an Alaskan mill...then I had the opportunity to mill with one and it just wasn't very enjoyable for me. The sharpening wasn't the problem, I like to sharpen with a file by hand and make my own handsaws, it was just the process wasn't so comfortable for me.

In general I find chainsaws to be annoying for me, more so than power tools to work wood with, because of the mess, oil, smoke, etc...I put up with it for working on the logs to build the home I'm working on, but would prefer to do it by hand with hand saws, axes, and other hand tools. I use hand tools after I rough the dovetail out, and that's the part I REALLY enjoy...I enjoy working wood by hand much more than with power tools. So, I use the approach that I do all the dimensioning of lumber with power tools and then do all the joinery, fitting, and detail work by hand using hand tools.

When I was learning how to fit dovetails back in West Virginia at a friend's yard, they were working pretty hard, it kept raining off and on, and he had to go talk to a client...when he came back to the yard he came over and jokingly asked if he could get me a chaise lounge...I had stacked some ends and pieces and was sitting down and fitting the dovetail just right with a hand plane and chisels. I told him I was on vacation and enjoying myself, and no I don't like to lay down while I work but I do like to sit rather than stand all day...I was quite enjoying the weather while it wasn't raining...

All his crew would leave at 3:30pm, but I would stay there...that was the best time for me...I pulled the jeep down by my logs, turned up the radio, relaxed with an ice tea and enjoyed the afternoon...life don't get much better than that...white pine shaves so nicely with a hand plane and a chisel...

(and thanks for the rep back! )

 

[BobL]

Yeah I love hand tools as well but I will draw the line at cutting up a log manually.

Even though I'm legally deaf I don't like the sound of powertools either, but it's more things like angle grinders and electric planers and sanders than set my teeth on edge and I wear the highest quality ear muffs and plugs I can afford if and when working with them. Maybe its because I grew up with chainsaws that I don't mind them. I respect all power tools but the one I respect the most (more than the 880) is my 12" table saw, that thing is a brute of a thing if its not treated right.