New stove decisions, thoughts, ideas, comments wanted

[Steve NW WI]

The time for a new stove is coming soon. My old Woodchuck furnace (not tied to ductwork, just dumping hot air into the basement) has been welded up a few times now in different places, and I want something more efficient as well.

Since last fall, I've been cutting all my wood to 16" for more flexibility in choosing a new stove, and this week the last 3 cords of 24" wood will be coming inside to get burned, so in the next 2 months, I'll be pulling the trigger on a new unit.

I've been scouring Craigslist for deals on used, but haven't been able to find anything that I liked, was in good shape, and not new or close to it price, so I've decided it will probably be a brand new unit.

I'm heating about 2000 sq ft, average insulation and windows being replaced one or two at a time, so constantly improving where I can. Propain backup when I'm gone that I can't stand the sound of...

I don't have a huge budget, and I'm frug...err cheap. I've looked at a bunch of stoves, and what I like are those with a bigger firebox for when I'm gone 12+ hours a day, and a pedestal base. Legs look cute, but the base seems more practical to me. I'll probably be willing to spend $2000 if there's dang good reason to, otherwise I have plenty of other places to put my money to work, so until it gets to the point where inexpensive turns to cheap (as in junk), I'll save pennies where I can.

So far, the leading contenders are the Englander NC-30 and the Drolet HT-2000. Both are similar in size, and can be had locally for not a lot over a grand. Specs are similar, with the Drolet 75lbs heavier, higher in claimed output (75,000 for the NC, 95,000 for the HT), but a bit higher in emissions (not sure how that factors in, or how important it is to me) 3.6 for HT, 1.6 for the NC. Drolet is listed at 78% efficient, the Englander isn't listed on their site, both are listed at 63% on the EPA list.

So, basically, I'd like some input to break the tie on my two choices, or feel free to try and convince me I need something else. The check's not written yet.

 

[struggle]

Probably out of your budget but we went from a Vermont castings stove to a Mansfield soapstone stove and I would never go back to an all metal stove ever again.

Long burn times and long heat retention.

I'm of no help to you on your stated stoves though. Good luck with the search

 

[deerlakejens]

Are you looking at Minneapolis CL? There is really a nice selection of stoves there right now and might be worth the drive for a decent deal. I'd go for the Grandpa Fisher stove myself, I love mine! My $.02.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Are you looking at Minneapolis CL? There is really a nice selection of stoves there right now and might be worth the drive for a decent deal. I'd go for the Grandpa Fisher stove myself, I love mine! My $.02.

Yes I am, but I'm looking at EPA stoves mainly, I like the big old stoves, but if I can save 3 cords a winter with one, that wood can sell and be used for other projects. I keep an eye on the regional CLs as well. I just get frustrated when I drive the wood hauler 80 miles one way to find a stove in poor condition that I couldn't tell from the crappy pics posted. There are a couple recently posted I'll take the chance to look at though.

Edit: it's funny, but I have a lot of luck with CL when looking for cool old saws, but none at all when looking for stoves. I've never come home empty handed from a trip to look at a saw, been on 10+ trips to look at stoves and haven't been happy with one yet.

Struggle, it's out of my range, but if I find a good price on a used soapstone before I buy the new steel stove, I'll sure consider it.

 

[Mac88]

Vermont Castings Resolute front and top loader, new in 1988. We finally rebuilt it last year. Just my 2 cents.

 

[savageactor7]

Well the Englander NC-30 is a very good stove and the price is right since you mentioned that up front. Steve with all the seasoned wood you have stockpiled I don't think you'd be disappointed in its performance ...just get one with a fan. Don't talk yourself out of it.

 

[cmsmoke]

I have a D.S. Machine Stove. It is a Energy Max 110. Good for 2400 sqft.. Amish built. 2.75 cuft fire box, secondary burn, very well built and heavy (750lbs.). Works very well. I can get 12 hrs. easy out of it.

 

[Fyrebug]

Vermont Casting used to have a great reputation. However, in the past 10 years they have been bought 2 or 3 times. It's a poorly kept secret but in the wood stove industry it is known they now are in serious financial trouble and nobody are willing to buy them out (unless they are bankrupt and only for the brand name). So it's possible that within 2 or 3 years if not sooner things may change again and not necessarily for the better. So you may want to take that into consideration if you are shopping.

NC30 and Drolet HT-2000 are great stoves. If you have stores in your area that have both, I would suggest you go have a hands on for both. Look at the door latch mechanism, baffle, fit and finish, warranty and value and I think if the Drolet is a couple hundred dollars more its money well spent.

Warranty on Drolet is limited lifetime. It comes standard with heat exchanger. Uses C Cast baffle. It's a best seller with the Amish in PA, IN & OH.

 

[MotorSeven]

Steve you have a ton of choices and much research to do. If it were me, I'd pick one out of the EPA litter, then focus energy on finding one used. Have the truck gassed up and cash stashed so when you find it you can jump on it. Take your time and search thoroughly through individual CL ads inside the radius you are willing to travel. Also google the item changing verbiage at least once a day.... sooner or later the one you are looking for will "appear".

 

[Streblerm]

I'm burning an Englander 30-NC that I bought on close out from Home Depot last year at the end of the season. It replaced a VC Defiant 1A. Other than looks (the Englander is growing on me) I couldn't be happier with its performance. Fire viewing is definitely a plus. It seems well made and simple. No joints to loosen up over time and only one gasket. I was slightly concerned about the refractory baffle but I have whacked it a few times and it has proven to be durable. I think I am going to buy a replacement set to keep on hand just in case.

I was burning 8 cords in the VC. So far this year I've only burned 1.5 cords and I have had at least a small fire burning since late September. It has been warm this year, but last year was pretty temperate too. It is much easier to modulate the temperature with the Englander. I wish I would've made the jump to an EPA stove much sooner. 8-12hr burns are no problem with the new stove.

You've narrowed your selection down to the same two that I did. You probably can't go wrong with either one.

On a side note, my local hardware has all their Hearthstones marked down significantly. They have the Phoenix model for $1899 which is similar in size to the 30-NC. It is a beautiful stove but I don't think I would be any happier with it over time than I am with the Englander.

 

[brenndatomu]

Steve you have a ton of choices and much research to do. If it were me, I'd pick one out of the EPA litter, then focus energy on finding one used. Have the truck gassed up and cash stashed so when you find it you can jump on it. Take your time and search thoroughly through individual CL ads inside the radius you are willing to travel. Also google the item changing verbiage at least once a day.... sooner or later the one you are looking for will "appear".

That's a good point. Try searching using lots of different key words. Some people have no clue on correct terminology and/or can't spell. Recently, someone here locally listed a Yukon furnace on CL under "Dream furnace for burning wood or coal"
I use CL, google, an "all of craigslist" type of service, and several others. It's funny what comes up on one but not on another!

 

[EXCALIBER]

I have been very happy with my Blaze King, going on 3 years now with it. I choose mine due to the high efficiency's, a 4.32 cubic foot firebox 27, customer reviews, features like easy to replace cat, blower system, and the constantly adjusting bi-metal air intake thermostat (think of it as going from a carbureted engine to a fuel injected one). I looked at many stoves first hand and did hours of research online trying to find the right stove. Some of the things I found were this:
1) There is no replacement for displacement, get the biggest firebox you can.
2) Look for a stove that has a deep firebox thus keeping the logs, embers and ashes where they belong, in the firebox. I believe mine has about 10-12 inch drop down from the door opening and I never have problems with that. Plus it allows greater time between ash cleanouts.
3) The only rating worth looking at is the EPA rating, as they are not trying to sell you at stove, lets face it most manufactures lie.
4) Save your money and buy the right stove the first time, it is way cheaper this way!!
5) All EPA stoves have wear items! Some have a fire baffle blanket (not sure what they are really called) that needs replaced. Some have air tubes that need replacing. Some like mine have a cat that needs replacing usually 5-10 years just depending. Not bad considering the saved wood and longer more even heat these stoves give.

I would buy another stove just like mine in an instant. One of my better purchases ever, just on the wood and money saved. Plus I needed a stove with long burn times as I am gone 12 plus hours 5 days a week, sometimes more. I can fill the stove with wood, turn it on low and leave for a weekend without having hard water pipes when I get back. My second choice would probably be one of the pacific energy stoves, as I like some of their features. I have never been around or burned one though. Hope this helps but check out this video it may help you decide. [video=youtube;jBSNWKI-d-A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBSNWKI-d-A[/video]

 

[Fyrebug]

3) The only rating worth looking at is the EPA rating, as they are not trying to sell you at stove, lets face it most manufactures lie.
5) All EPA stoves have wear items! Some have a fire baffle blanket (not sure what they are really called) that needs replaced. Some have air tubes that need replacing.

Cat stove are not necessarily more energy efficient. They do however burn much longer than a secondary burn stove. Their heating curve is a lot flatter so it keeps radiating heat at a lower level for a long time. The downside of Cat stove is they are huge in order to provide the long burn time and in my estimation they are sinfully bugly!

I agree with most of your points except the 2 above. The only and I mean the only useful piece of information on the EPA label is the g/hr. That's all EPA is concerned about. The BTU's & efficiencies are bogus on the label. Yet they insist we put them there.

So here is the explanation... Remember we are testing for EPA smoke emissions, not efficiencies or BTU's. When the tests are conducted the protocol calls to burn BC fir (softwood) in small QTY and cribbed. So of course if you dont put wood in the stoves your BTU ratings will be low! Since nobody burns like that most MFG conduct their own BTU tests using mixed cordwood.

All EPA labels rate every single stove MFG'd since the 80's at 63% efficiency. That's actually not tested. What EPA is saying in effect is "If this stove is EPA rated, you should expect a minimum of 63% efficiency". It's a benchmark, untested value and is meaningless. However, since EPA is a gobermint agency they force the MFG to put that figure there no matter how meaningless. With the new EPA legislation this label will hopefully be changed to reflect better info.

There are more moving parts in a Cat stove there will ever be in a non-cat. The only time you would ever need to replace the burn tubes is if you had a major overfire which made them sag. Of course by then, other stuff has warped and cracked. The ceramic blanket on top of the baffle is there to provide more insulation. Once its got dirty and matted you can throw it out and dont have to replace it. It makes little difference.

 

[Steve NW WI]

I have a D.S. Machine Stove. It is a Energy Max 110. Good for 2400 sqft.. Amish built. 2.75 cuft fire box, secondary burn, very well built and heavy (750lbs.). Works very well. I can get 12 hrs. easy out of it.

I was just looking at the EM 110 - it looks to be a nice stout plain jane unit. I like it, but the only price I found online was at $2300 with a blower, before shipping up here. If that's one of the crazy internet prices I've seen (some stoves are offered for up to $800 more than I've found locally or elsewhere online...) please let me know and I'll consider it.

...NC30 and Drolet HT-2000 are great stoves. If you have stores in your area that have both, I would suggest you go have a hands on for both. Look at the door latch mechanism, baffle, fit and finish, warranty and value and I think if the Drolet is a couple hundred dollars more its money well spent.

Warranty on Drolet is limited lifetime. It comes standard with heat exchanger. Uses C Cast baffle. It's a best seller with the Amish in PA, IN & OH.

Thanks, it's been a while since I fondled the NC-30, I'll have to go back and take a closer look. I was just looking at the HT-2000 last week, and the quality looked pretty good to me, and felt solid. I work in metal fab, so things that don't get noticed by the common buyer get a closeup from me.

How durable is the C-cast, and if it should need to be replaced, how expensive is a replacement?

I'm burning an Englander 30-NC that I bought on close out from Home Depot last year at the end of the season. It replaced a VC Defiant 1A. Other than looks (the Englander is growing on me) I couldn't be happier with its performance. Fire viewing is definitely a plus. It seems well made and simple. No joints to loosen up over time and only one gasket. I was slightly concerned about the refractory baffle but I have whacked it a few times and it has proven to be durable. I think I am going to buy a replacement set to keep on hand just in case.

I was burning 8 cords in the VC. So far this year I've only burned 1.5 cords and I have had at least a small fire burning since late September. It has been warm this year, but last year was pretty temperate too. It is much easier to modulate the temperature with the Englander. I wish I would've made the jump to an EPA stove much sooner. 8-12hr burns are no problem with the new stove.

You've narrowed your selection down to the same two that I did. You probably can't go wrong with either one.

On a side note, my local hardware has all their Hearthstones marked down significantly. They have the Phoenix model for $1899 which is similar in size to the 30-NC. It is a beautiful stove but I don't think I would be any happier with it over time than I am with the Englander.

Thanks for the vote for the Englander. I have looked at a bunch of fancier stoves toward the top end of my price range, but to me they weren't enough nicer or prettier to justify the price. The stove's gonna live down in the basement, not the middle of the living room, so looks aren't that important to me.

That's a good point. Try searching using lots of different key words. Some people have no clue on correct terminology and/or can't spell. Recently, someone here locally listed a Yukon furnace on CL under "Dream furnace for burning wood or coal"
I use CL, google, an "all of craigslist" type of service, and several others. It's funny what comes up on one but not on another!

I missed quoting MotorSeven's post, but thanks as well. I've been looking at CL off and on since about July, searching about 8 different ways. It just frustrates me after a while, the number of people who are trying to sell something, know little about it, aren't willing to find out basic information like model number, etc. I haven't ruled out used yet, but it's going to have to be a pretty nice one at a real nice price to change my mind at this point. Honestly, the amount of time I've spent searching, going to look at junk, etc., probably add up already to more than what I'll ever save, but it's the principle I guess.

Keep the comments coming!

 

[EXCALIBER]

I'm not familar with Blaze King wood stoves but at the 56 second mark: "Blaze King catalytic wood stoves are 4 times as energy efficient as any non-catalytic wood stove......"


This is an outright lie!


Don't trust them.


I stopped watching at that point.

What stove do you have then??? If you have never been around them how would you know?

 

[Fyrebug]

How durable is the C-cast, and if it should need to be replaced, how expensive is a replacement?

C Cast is ceramic composite material and not cheap. However, you would have to go out of your way to bust them since the tubes are in the way. Should last you the lifetime of the stove.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Ex, I found a Blaze King dealer not too terribly far from me that has a King demo model I'm going to take a look at later this week (whenever I get caught up on shoveling and plowing snow...). It's still $700 over my top dollar, so it's not likely I'll go that way, but you never know.

Del, I've been around long enough to know a sales pitch when I see one. While it's over promoted most likely, it doesn't mean it's a bad unit.

Thanks for the explantion on the listed efficiency Fyrebug. I kind of figured that, after looking at all the different stoves with the same numbers on the EPA list. It does list cat stoves at 72% however.

 

[Fyrebug]

Thanks for the explantion on the listed efficiency Fyrebug. I kind of figured that, after looking at all the different stoves with the same numbers on the EPA list. It does list cat stoves at 72% however.

EPA differentiate between Cat and Non-Cat. 72% is not accurate either. They'll be in the mid to high 80's typically.

Just so I dont speak out of terms. Cat stoves will tend to higher efficiencies. When it comes to efficiencies there are different ways of measuring it. For wood stoves typically its the 'stack-loss' method but sometimes it can be stated in LHV or HHV. So sometimes it's difficult to compare apples to apples.

 

[MotorSeven]

Off subject a bit, but do any of us know the difference in efficiency from a stove with {proper}secondaries vs one with a cat? Both are burning particles in smoke, so I wonder if there is a huge difference or just a little in btu output & burn time? Fyrebug touched on it, but are there any hard numbers out there or side by side test data?

I've never owned one, but I don't think I have read any bad info on a BlazeKing. Pop over to ********** and read about them there.....most owners are very happy.

 

[cmsmoke]

I don't have the fan on my D.S.. It is around a $250 option. My stove is also a 2011 model. The 2012 model has an adjustable air wash and comes with a slotted plate to cover the grates to build a better ash bed when burning wood. I haven't seen the need for either as long as you use dry wood, burn hot enough and let the ash bed build up enough to take advantage of the air vents on top of the grates. I didn't pay that much for mine, but I live in Pa where they are built. I didn't realize that you are so far away. They are located in Gordonville, PA and the stove weighs 750lbs. Maybe that will help you make a determination. Maybe look up D.S. dealers in your area for a better price?