O/T: Dozer-Crawler-Loader Owners- Your Thoughts on a Project JD 450 ?

[bigv]

HEY MAN, YOU CAN SKIP THIS PART, IF YOU WANT. THIS IS JUST TO ANSWER WHY I'D WANT A PROJECT John Deere 450
Notice the O/T. Off Topic. Apologies for my chainsaw loving brethern, but this dovetails with my chainsaw use

In terms of crawlers: I own a John Deere 440 dozer, and a 1969 International TD6-62 DROTT skid shovel.

I'd like to have another crawler, something with more power than the 440 but no bigger than 18,000lbs . I'm not looking for any advice here, per se, just some perspective, if anyone wants to share. Anything anyone contributes is appreciated, in other words.

I like John Deere and International products- I can work on them and parts are available, but when scrap went up- all the old equipment took the long boat to china. So I don't have much selection due to that, and my buying rules.

My rules for buying are that I do not buy anything unless I can work on it and service it, and I do not ever buy anything unless I can afford to buy it outright and not incur any debt. I prefer to buy equipment that needs repair, so that when I go through it, I know what I have. I know it is sometimes easy to spend more money on getting a non-runner or repairable machine fixed than buying one that is supposedly good, but I do my research, I minimize my risk, and I'd still rather fix a $3000 machine than pay $12,000 for that is supposed to be a "good" machine and then dump the same amount into it that a $3000 machine will necessitate. I'm not budging on that part of what I do, it's who I am, it's what I do. It's one of my quirks.

What will you use this machine for ?
The reasons I do not want a newer machine: purchase price, electronics, lack of familiarity. I do not want anything with any electronics of any type, and I will not be using this dozer full time. I will use it in the woods, I will use it on my farm, I will do some odd jobs, some recovery work with it(getting broke down stuff out of the woods or wilderness), and I will use it do a little rough road work around things like house sites, development sites, or hunting club land. I will not make a living with it- my business is split between my job shop where I do machine work and repairs of all types, then I earn extra money doing select tractor and heavy equipment repair, and finally I've got into logging on my family's property(land use plan forced me to). If I am not busy with one of those 3 types of work, it is an extremely rare occurrence. I hate being bored, I hate not having something to do. So I stay busy, even if it requires me to be spread thin. I have no debt, I own everything that I have, it is paid for. Including any land, and my home. Not bragging, I am nearly bald, overweight, and I don't get a lot of sleep- I've paid dearly for what I consider to be my independence.

THAT'S NICE, TLDR, THIS IS THE INFO ON THE JOHN DEERE 450
I'd like anyone's perspective or opinions on the following machine. I'm not looking for someone to convince me to buy it or not buy it, I just want to read some thoughts, perspective, and opinions. If you are loyal to another brand or think having an older dozer is a waste of money, I appreciate your perspective, but I am only asking about this 450, and it is an old machine and it is a John Deere.

I have found a mid to late 1960's John Deere 450(straight) for $3000 that has the following come with it:
-Complete John Deere 450(straight)
-All Service Manuals and Parts Manuals and Supplements
-John Deere Winch
-John Deere 6 Way Blade
(reason I note John Deere on those two above) is to clarify they are factory parts and are not cobbled up additions
-Ditch Witch Backhoe Unit
-Has 450C Diesel Engine Installed with less than 200 hours, engine was rebuilt and swapped in by a dealer in Bombingham AL
- the HLR Transmission has never been retrofitted- it apparently Slips and Does the Crawl into Gear- didn't do it when I was there
-Rebuilt Final Drives- everything but the housings are new(sprockets, clutches, brakes, etc)
Also Comes With:
-Spare 450 Straight diesel engine, complete, has repairable crack and a spun rod bearing
-Spare Rebuilt 450 Transmission HLR Transmission to final drive assembly(everything there from a flywheel all the way back to the final drives and sprockets) that has never been swapped in. Transmission was rebuilt by a Newnan GA area heavy equip dealer, the dozer was stolen, and the transmission all the way back to the final drives was still there untouched
-New Idlers(not installed)
-New Rollers, not installed, but full set each side, new John Deere parts, in weathered boxes
-New Track Pads(grouser/dozer style pads)
-Bar stock for making pins out of(I am a machinist with my own equipment so no problem to make the pins)

I have contacted the dealers in question, and they remember this machine and its story. The owner purchased it from a shadyass Deere Construction dealer in Alabama. Shortly after that, the engine went. Another dealer went in and got a 450C short block and built it up to a complete unit, it is verifiable it has less than 200 hours from rebuild. Engine runs nice.

Wait a minute what needs to be done here ? Are you qualified ?
The owner is adamant it needs the transmission rebuilt or the good transmission swapped in. In regards to the transmission that is in the machine now, I did not stress it so it did not slip with me, it was sluggish in reverse, it was sluggish cold in high range. I know it has never been retrofitted, however from speaking with two Deere dealers.

I know the history on the spare transmission to final drive assembly- it was part of a dealer completely reconditioned machine(450 but not sure if it is a straight 450 or 450B/C) that was stolen from Newnan GA after reconditioning for the USFS, USFS had it stolen, it was stripped, it was recovered after 3 weeks and the USFS had it auctioned. All that was left was the complete transmission all the way back to complete finals and sprockets- that's what is there in that part. The dealer in Newnan said he would not hesitate to use it to swap transmissions or just internals between the two.

I have never been into a John Deere 450 HLR transmission before, but I have been into and all over International models TD6, TD9, TD340, 500H, and John Deere models 440, Deere 420, and a whole bunch of different brand tractors since I was 14. I am in my 30's now.

All the service manuals are there. I have a building to do the work in. I have a gantry crane, trolley, and hoist to help with lifting. I have my trackloader and the dozer if stuff gets hairy. I have a front end loader on a 70hp Ford 4x4 too. I have every hand tool and diesel tool I'd need.

What was the price again ?

Note: I already bought the Ditch Witch backhoe from the owner for $350, because it would fit my 440 and it would be a good replacement for the unit on my Case 380CK(side shift unit, but I want a regular outrigger backhoe unit which this Ditch Witch unit is).

The owner of this machine has $13000 in receipts for the engine and new parts, and that does not include the original dozer purchase price, or the transmission to final drive unit.

I would be giving $2650 cash, no less, and it will cost me about $500 to have it delivered to my farm, from Charlotte NC.

 

[gunrac]

I must b in the wrong forum...........

 

[procarbine2k1]

As anyone would note with the amount in receipts, buying an older dozer is a real gamble that I typically wouldn't want to take.... but at $2650, I don't see how you could go wrong. Post up some pics when you get it home!

 

[boxygen]

Sounds like a plan to me.

 

[C SAW 090]

I had an international TD20 10 years ago, and i was having a hard time finding parts then. The old 450 jds were good little dozers but u had to keep the bolts tight or it would rattle apart.

 

[nmurph]

Just subbing-

Very well written. I know nothing about dozers (I've run a couple of 450's), but it sounds like you have a plan, the facilities, the needed equipment to help with heavy lifting, skill, and determination. I usually don't like OT postings in the wrong forum, but I will be following this thread wherever it ends up.

 

[Coldfront]

I consider our JD 450H at work getting to be a old machine. Buy old and you are buying problems. It is nothing to drop $10,000 - $15,000 into a old dozer. Hydraulic leaks, etc. We also have a 655B that leaks so bad out of the hydraulic pump like 8 gallons in a 8 hour day. Hydraulic oil is about $8 - $9 per gallon. They want $10,000 just for a new pump, then you have the rams that are leaking also, along with the worn out rails and rollers, drive sprockets, and numerous hydraulic hoses leaking or ready to leak. You can drop $2000 in hydraulic hoses in a heart beat. Go price a couple hydraulic hoses. Just letting you know what you are getting yourself into. Oil and fuel filters @ $50 or more a crack. Unless you have a plan to make some good money with it. Many old machines that still run are sold at scrap metal prices for a reason.

 

[bryanr2]

opcorn: I have nothing to contribute as far as dozers, but I appreciate you sharing this thread, and look forward to folllowing it.

 

[Guido Salvage]

Having owned 20+ crawlers I would probably jump on this if I was in need of a machine. Given that you have the time, shop and expertise it sounds like a good starting point. The bigger the machine the bigger the repair bills...

 

[bigv]

I consider our JD 450H at work getting to be a old machine. Buy old and you are buying problems. It is nothing to drop $10,000 - $15,000 into a old dozer. Hydraulic leaks, etc. We also have a 655B that leaks so bad out of the hydraulic pump like 8 gallons in a 8 hour day. Hydraulic oil is about $8 - $9 per gallon. They want $10,000 just for a new pump, then you have the rams that are leaking also, along with the worn out rails and rollers, drive sprockets, and numerous hydraulic hoses leaking or ready to leak. You can drop $2000 in hydraulic hoses in a heart beat. Go price a couple hydraulic hoses. Just letting you know what you are getting yourself into. Oil and fuel filters @ $50 or more a crack. Unless you have a plan to make some good money with it. Many old machines that still run are sold at scrap metal prices for a reason.

I appreciate your experience and understand what you are saying.

I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but here goes:
I've been lucky with my two as far as fluids. I use JD303/Hytrans Spec in the 440 and TD-6. If I get it in 5 gallon buckets- it is around $6 a gallon, tax included. I quit doing that, and I buy a pallet of 50 gallon drums gear oil and a pallet of 50 gallon drums of 303/Hytrans spec hydraulic oil from Warner out of Nebraska. It takes it down to about $3.xx a gallon with freight for the 303/HT and about $6-$7 a gallon for true gear oil. I have to pick up at a terminal and unload the pallet myself. There is another company named Warne that will sell you their house brand 303/HT by the pallet in 5 gallon buckets, and it comes out to 5 or 6 a gallon, but their gear oil is still around $9 or $10 a gallon for 90w or 140w even by the pallet.

I don't know if it is feasible for you, but I do so many hoses for people that I purchased a Gates and a Weatherpak machine- the Gates can use any fitting except true quick disconnects, the Weatherpack machine can do any of the quick disconnects. Then I get my hose by the roll and buy the fittings by the box.

If you're just dealing with fairly simple JIC and NPT type fittings, I highly recommend you check out Surplus Supply. They're about the cheapest company around, and if you can deal with a little extra length or approximate length, their hoses are cheap, cheap, cheap. They also last well.

I have enough equipment that I could not afford to have anyone else do hoses.

I'm lucky in that I can get the filters from Fleet Supply by the case. I've machined adapters so I can use 4 different filter types on my crawlers and the tractors- so they can share filters. I use Donaldson's oil analysis kits and also sent samples to Blackstone of my oil, diesel, and hydraulic oil. As long as the pressure in the system is where it is supposed to be and the filtration is good, it's ok for me to do that, because nothing I own has a warranty, and I'm responsible for maintenance. You can't do that obviously.

And I'm not trying to negate or disagree with you- everything you've said is true. I'm just adding this in here if someone sees the thread and is looking for alternatives.

 

[bigv]

I had an international TD20 10 years ago, and i was having a hard time finding parts then. The old 450 jds were good little dozers but u had to keep the bolts tight or it would rattle apart.

I'd love to have a TD-18 or TD-20, but it is too big for me to haul or use, and parts aren't available for them like the TD6,9,340 and 500.

I check everything on my 440/420 hybrid at least once a week. I remember getting it home from the scrap yard and everything was stuck. 50/50 Acetone/ATF on everything that was stuck, and I used it a little before tearing into it- now the problem is keeping everything torqued and tight- red loctite sometimes comes through and sometimes it isn't feasible or just vibrates to death. I've also learned to watch the rails and the track frames and the bellhousing and that early HLR transmission. The early 450's aren't as bad as the 1010 and 2010 for the rails and frames, but I've seen some pretty weird stuff holding 450's together.

 

[bigv]

I must b in the wrong forum...........

O/T = Off Topic

 

[fearofpavement]

Parting that unit out would probably be the most advantageous financially. However, with all the extras sounds like a good buy. As stated by another poster, this older equipment can be a money pit. I was fixing up a Jacobsen HF-15 fairway mower to mow an airstrip with but couldn't get parts for a gearbox that ran the huge hydraulic pump. Wound up scrapping it out and taking a loss. (I still have a Perkins 4cyl engine that runs good)
I have a pile of large filters for heavy equipment. They are Cummins branded and I have nothing that uses most of them. Got filters for oil, fuel, coolant, air, hydraulic, etc. If you know the numbers shoot em my way and we can maybe help each other.

 

[fordf150]

Sounds like a good enough deal to me that i wouldn't pass it up. I regret weekly selling my allis hd4.

 

[Yukon Stihl]

If it was me i'd buy it.
All my iron is older stuff for all the same reasons as you,it's all paid for too.My stuff is mainly Caterpillar,i did go out of my comfort zone and bought a Hitachi EX 200 with electronics.The first thing i bought was a reader for the computer,there are no Hitachi dealers anywhere near me.Hitachi is great,was just worried about the electronics.
The 6 way blade is worth the 3K.Last year i bought a D7 parts cat for mine for 5K,mainly for the straight blade.It runs has the wrong tranny and the undercarriage isn't new,but i used my last rollers so they are better than nothing.
You can always sell off some parts to free up money to by a chainsaw.
Thomas

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I've owned a few dozers, i have an older one now... I really don't want to have ANY tractor around that i'll have to work on much beyond normal maintance, meaning i don't like working on them. You don't seem to mind having to work on them...

Personally, i wouldn't want to own an old deere 450 UNLESS it was in REALLY good shape and planned to use it OFTEN. Older deere 450's do have clutch sticking issues when you leave them sit any length of time, they also have frame cracking issues.

My dozer will sit for a month at a time, sometimes longer, and that's why i bought a Case tractor, if it sit's for a month or two, no problem at all. It's been a GREAT dozer, no big problems at all.

SR

 

[MarcS]

For 3k what is the discussion even about? You don't buy much of anything for that. Of course we all know how much of a money pit these machines are. My old man has a 1965 Cat 933G with at least 20k in it since he bought it ten years ago, 7K in the undercarraige alone.

 

[jockeydeuce]

I can chime in on this one!

I have been operating a heavy equipment wrecking yard for 25 years and have specialized in crawlers, especially John Deere......I would be all over that deal, if I needed a crawler. Doing the HLR isn't that bad once you set your mind to it, and it's much easier in the dozer than the loader models. The engine in these is an absolute snap to remove to work your way into the HLR.....Doing the HLR itself is a little uglier, but not brutal. I would definitely just swap out the pack assembly rather than swap the whole back end.

As you probably know, the dry steering clutches in the staright 450 and the "B" series were a bit problematic, so I would go through those before taking it to work.....Nice that it's upgraded with the 4-219T instead of the 4-202 natural engine!!!

 

[bigv]

Thank you all so much, whether you think it is a good idea or bad. Your time spent replying and offering your experiences is greatly appreciated.

The owner is hard to get up with due to the fact that he works all the time.

I actually "need" this machine, so I am going to go ahead and buy it if he hasn't hauled it for junk- he is in a nasty divorce and it is remotely possible that it is gone.

The way I make money with one is basically recovery, skidding, road building, gravel application, smoothing ruts on non-maintained dirt roads, and doing jobs that in any other area would be done with either a much bigger machine or done with a skid steer.

I live in an area that is virtually shut off from the world due to the crappy roads and nature. One two lane narrow road to my east, one two lane narrow road to my west, and another two lane narrow road to the north, roads south to Atlanta are halfass ok, but no one in Atlanta wants to haul equipment up here.

In my county, you have 10,000 to 15,000 year round residents- that doubles or triples spring, summer and fall then drops back during winter. There are only 8 people who still own a dozer or crawler loader and will do work with them in this county, a few guys have skid steers but they try to do jobs that are too big for the machine. Average per hour cost is $125 to $175. Almost all of those guys charge you an hour to two hours a day for warm up and idling and cool down.

Because of transport costs and the difficulty with the roads, no one and I do mean no one, will come from Chattanooga, Asheville, or Atlanta unless it is job that is going to pay $100,000 plus. It's automatically a 2 hour drive from any of those places, and that is one way, no stops, and

Recovery wise- I get around $750 to $1500 for removing a skid steer that has been wrecked/sunk/submerged. They go into septic tanks, places where a basement or storm shelter used to be, and very rarely around here- where a cistern was. That may seem high, but to get a wrecker out to do it, and not tear the machine up is around $3000 here if you have insurance.

Road access is just basically clearing out trees to an owners satisfaction, dealing with the stumps, and then application of top soil and gravel and grading.

A lot of guys who are snowbirds will go out on their properties and cut down trees and find out it is too far to drive their lawn mower, 4 wheeler, or whatever to cut and pick up a little wood. A lot of the time, a guy with a little land will let his buddies cut down a couple trees to get wood off of. I can take my 440/420 hybrid and skid out anything they have and still make money and they're happy because the trees get brought out to their houses or homes or shops so they can buck it and store it all at one time.

We have a lot of marsh and swamp and other land around here where people want different grading and soil removal things done.

During the winter, my machine shop gets slow because the snowbirds often go back to FL, and the people who are into farming and agriculture aren't using their equipment enough to break stuff like normal.

So to keep me busy and keep money coming in, I work on other people's equipment, and I do jobs using my tractors and crawlers, and I was basically forced into logging out our tree land.

I'm not complaining, I don't have any debt, I have enough money come in to pay for lifestyle and equipment, I don't hate my job anymore, I hate myself because I hate my job anymore, and to some degree I am free. So I feel VERY lucky.