opinions on the demise of this Meteor 390 top end - big pic warning

[sunfish]

Could clean up the cylinder, add new piston and send it back...

 

[nstueve]

It was the customers fault. 100%... The original lean seizure was caused by something and he did not take the appropriate steps to repair the saw correctly. If a shop put the top end on and didn't leak check or determine the cause of the failure then they would be liable for the top end cost since they were the installers. Since he installed and didn't mind his P's and Q's that is totally on him. Fuel lines and oil seals should have been replaced along with the fuel in the tank. You have gone above and beyond covering return shipping and replacing the part Dave. I would tell him outright that there is no warranty on the 2nd top end since you believe this was caused by his own lack of rebuild knowledge.

 

[Jacob J.]

I gotta refund him, not worth arguing or bad blood over a chainsaw part but I can t justify asking Meteor for a freebie on this one, I don't see any evidence of manufacturer error.
Seeing the responses from guys with more wrench time on any particular model than my entire lifetime will see on all models combined is what makes posting here a constant learning experience.
You guys rock!!!

In this case, I would bet good money that it was operator error. His response says it all- "Attempt to do the repair myself..." That's the line I've gotten pretty much every time someone has purchased parts from me and had things go bad. He didn't diagnose the original condition and he didn't do any other preventative checks.

You can recoup some money on this deal though- one of us will surely buy that cylinder (like myself) and clean it up.

 

[Modifiedmark]

I'm stunned at all the replies stating straight gassed. Uh, Ok...

Dave, I placed a order from your ebay store yesterday, so maybe that will help prop you back up a little in the pocket book for the butt reaming this other guy is giving you.

I got a roached MS460 here that the piston looks like the one you pictured here and most it seems would have said it was straight gassed also. But it wasn't.

 

[sunfish]

I'm stunned at all the replies stating straight gassed. Uh, Ok...

Dave, I placed a order from your ebay store yesterday, so maybe that will help prop you back up a little in the pocket book for the butt reaming this other guy is giving you.

I got a roached MS460 here that the piston looks like the one you pictured here and most it seems would have said it was straight gassed also. But it wasn't.

Straight gassed is only one possible cause of this condition...

 

[dall]

in the second set of pics i saw nicks and not sure if so but it would force the piston over to the other side and ride on cylinder wall heating up and scoring it i think there is junk in the bottom end or a bearing going or gone bad

 

[Definitive Dave]

If the customer wants to know why it died I can send him a link.

I checked for nicks and there dot seem to be any but there are laces along the edge of the exhaust port where there is no transfer right at the edge so at the right angle it looks like nicks.
Refund is easiest. It's just business, I cant let it ruin my hobby
Less than 1% of all orders have any kind of a hiccup and about half of those are us running out of something or pulling the wrong part and the majority of customers are cool and good to deal with if a problem arises.
Of course the exception that proves the rule is the guy who currently is message bombing me to say that the OEM Stihl MS660 pistons I sell are counterfeit because the laser etching isn't right on the ring and that everybody knows that real OEM Stihl pistons don't come with one circlip installed and the other in the Stihl bag with the piston pin. The guy has 2000+ feedback but seems just uber-bent.

I'm stunned at all the replies stating straight gassed. Uh, Ok...
Dave, I placed a order from your ebay store yesterday, so maybe that will help prop you back up a little in the pocket book for the butt reaming this other guy is giving you.
I got a roached MS460 here that the piston looks like the one you pictured here and most it seems would have said it was straight gassed also. But it wasn't.

Thanks Mang, you are good people, so now I gotta know what it looks like to you. My initial impression and still the contender in my mind is bad/straight/ethanol/water fuel.

 

[Modifiedmark]

If the customer wants to know why it died I can send him a link.

I checked for nicks and there dot seem to be any but there are laces along the edge of the exhaust port where there is no transfer right at the edge so at the right angle it looks like nicks.
Refund is easiest. It's just business, I cant let it ruin my hobby
Less than 1% of all orders have any kind of a hiccup and about half of those are us running out of something or pulling the wrong part and the majority of customers are cool and good to deal with if a problem arises.
Of course the exception that proves the rule is the guy who currently is message bombing me to say that the OEM Stihl MS660 pistons I sell are counterfeit because the laser etching isn't right on the ring and that everybody knows that real OEM Stihl pistons don't come with one circlip installed and the other in the Stihl bag with the piston pin. The guy has 2000+ feedback but seems just uber-bent.



Thanks Mang, you are good people, so now I gotta know what it looks like to you. My initial impression and still the contender in my mind is bad/straight/ethanol/water fuel.

Ok, to me that saw was run lean. Either a air leak or the air to fuel mixture was too lean. Seen it so many times.

 

[Definitive Dave]

My thoughts went to bad fuel from the primarily exhaust side scoring, the husky dealer telling him bad gas on the first one, and the fact that this piston and cylinder are dry as a bone, which isn't something you guys can feel on the computer screen
Not a smear of anything remotely moist even in the corner between the wall and top of the head, a little black soot on my finger from the cylinder wall but super dry. Of course he could have wiped it down well before packing it, I have no way to know.
In my head bad fuel is a possible cause of lean failure along with air leaks, poor tune, etc. Anything that can cause the air/fuel/oil balance to be corrupt.
Learning makes me feel smart but never smart enough.
thanks for your answer
Dave

 

[o8f150]

could very possible his chain was very dull and he was trying to burn through the wood

 

[nnero]

If the new top end failed so quickly (customer stated less than 1gal) then it would mostly be something big like gas mix, intake boot not seated, gasket, tune or a mix of those factors? Would a leak caused by a bad seal or a bearing starting to go cause failure that fast? I would to see the chain he was running too.

 

[o8f150]

If the new top end failed so quickly (customer stated less than 1gal) then it would mostly be something big like gas mix, intake boot not seated, gasket, tune or a mix of those factors? Would a leak caused by a bad seal or a bearing starting to go cause failure that fast? I would to see the chain he was running too.

if it a seal was leaking that bad it could not be tuned right from the start

 

[mountainlake]

Ok, to me that saw was run lean. Either a air leak or the air to fuel mixture was too lean. Seen it so many times.

Have too agree and I'd guess 80% of lean seizes are caused by setting the carb too lean, getting that extra RPM. Steve

 

[idiotwithasaw]

As stated, by another member, I would be glad to buy one of your meteor pistons and this top end and try to salvage it. At least get you a little recoupe. Love doing business with you Dave, you are one of the best.

 

[fordf150]

@Definitive Dave what is the underside of the piston look like? dry as a bone= straight gas or close to it. Oil on the underside of the piston crown=lean tune/air leak.

like @nnero said...pics of bar and chain help with diagnosing a failure too.

Dave make up a checklist of what you need for future P&C warranty claims just like an OEM.

pictures of xyz required for warranty claim

1. B&C
2. recoil side of saw
3. exterior of cylinder
4. intake and exhaust side of piston
5. crown and underside of piston
6. ethanol content of fuel
7. brand of oil and mix ratio
8. results of P&V test before and after repairs

If they cant provide a response to those 8 basic questions=deny the claim
If they answer those questions.......even if half are a lie...you can determine the reason for failure and refund/replace as necessary. good will replacements will keep your feedback score high and customers happy but wont do your wallet any good. Even if they have already left you positive feedback...your willingness to go above and beyond may be the difference between a one time customer and a lifetime customer

 

[Mattyo]

If it wasn't an air leak due to seals...which is unlikely because it's a newer saw....but a carb can clog....maybe simply there is a clog in the carb somewhere causing lean running

 

[Philip Wheelock]

... I would bet good money that it was operator error. His response says it all- "Attempt to do the repair myself..." That's the line I've gotten pretty much every time someone has purchased parts from me and had things go bad. He didn't diagnose the original condition and he didn't do any other preventative checks...

I'm wondering:
Did the guy assemble the P/C w/plenty of 2-stroke oil and follow the service manual to the letter? Tune the carb a bit rich from specs and avoid long cuts during break-in?
Probably not.

 

[spike60]

It was the customers fault. 100%... The original lean seizure was caused by something and he did not take the appropriate steps to repair the saw correctly. If a shop put the top end on and didn't leak check or determine the cause of the failure then they would be liable for the top end cost since they were the installers. Since he installed and didn't mind his P's and Q's that is totally on him. Fuel lines and oil seals should have been replaced along with the fuel in the tank. You have gone above and beyond covering return shipping and replacing the part Dave. I would tell him outright that there is no warranty on the 2nd top end since you believe this was caused by his own lack of rebuild knowledge.

This is the key point here. Not so much what caused the failure, but the fact that there is a repeat failure.

Failure #2 looks just like failure #1, doesn't it? So, whatever took out the original cylinder can reasonably be assumed to have taken out the second. So as has been said, this is really on the customer. One failure, you could question the parts. Two failures you have to look at something else. And this guy failed to do that, and he, not Dave, should have to pay for his own mistake.

Good for business? Yes, it is IMO. Why should Dave eat the guys mistake? Think a Husky or Stihl dealer can get a free top end without being able to identify why the first one failed? Think I could get a second one from Husky still not knowing why they are failing? And this guy wants to stick a THIRD one on there?

 

[USMC615]

This is the key point here. Not so much what caused the failure, but the fact that there is a repeat failure.

Failure #2 looks just like failure #1, doesn't it? So, whatever took out the original cylinder can reasonably be assumed to have taken out the second. So as has been said, this is really on the customer. One failure, you could question the parts. Two failures you have to look at something else. And this guy failed to do that, and he, not Dave, should have to pay for his own mistake.

Good for business? Yes, it is IMO. Why should Dave eat the guys mistake? Think a Husky or Stihl dealer can get a free top end without being able to identify why the first one failed? Think I could get a second one from Husky still not knowing why they are failing? And this guy wants to stick a THIRD one on there?

Spot on post!!

 

[Chainsaw Jim]

If the inside of the cylinder was that dirty in less than one gallon of fuel then it was some pretty dirty fuel.

If he already left feedback then maybe consider telling him he can't just destroy items and expect a refund. Even if the dealer told him it was straight gas, that's the dealers diagnosis and you are not involved in any way, nor should you be liable.
I've bought many items off eBay and I've always went with the highest feedback ratings until buying chainsaw parts. Those parts are usually in low numbers and most am parts are in China if you go that route.