Oregon Micro-Lite 90PX chain sharpening

[Chris-PA]

A machine to sharpen a long, fragile blade like a straight razor (of which I have plenty) would be impractical for everyday use. But they are sharpened by machine at manufacture, where speed counts!

Exactly. Like many tools, straight razors, axes, saw chain, etc, the factory edge is just a starting point - done quickly and cheaply. This makes sense because the edge will quickly wear and need to be refreshed over and over by the user anyway, who must have the ability to sharpen it as part of being able to use it. And this is usually done by hand. The purpose of automation is to reduce costs, rarely to improve the product.

 

[Philbert]

I know this is probably off topic but how do electric sharpers work as far indexing (advancing) the cutters to next one? Is automatic or manually done?

Short answer: most are manually advanced.

There are a few different types of electric sharpeners commonly used: rotary (e.g. Dremel, Granberg, or the Oregon and STIHL versions); small / 'mini' grinders (4" or smaller wheel); and full sized grinders (5' to 8" wheels).

Most of the rotary grinders are hand held, and hand positioned, except for the Granberg Model G1012XT, which means that the operator controls the angles, depth of grind, etc. IMO, these are mostly for touch-up work, although, I know that some guys grind back some heavy stuff with them. That ties into the discussion about different stones, above. http://granberg.com/product/g1012xt-precision-grinder

Most of the mini-grinders are also for light duty sharpening, or for smaller chains. My comments on these are extensively documented in this thread: http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/hf-chain-grinder-thread.268303/ Post #117 shows one 'self-indexing' version of a mini grinder, but I did not try it personally. Again, the quality of the wheels matter.

Most full sized grinders also require manual advancement of the chain, although, a few have automatic clamping of the cutters as the grinder head is lowered. Once set, all the the angles and depths are consistent, but the operator controls the speed of the grind. I recommend the full sized grinders for people who do a lot of chains, who repair damaged chains, or who are picky about angles, etc., due to their power, speed, adjustability, and durability.

Fully automatic grinders get into the $$$ area, up to $20K !!!. There are always rumors about lower priced units being introduced.
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/automatic-chain-grinder-thread.287786/

I also have found the not all files are good files.

Same thing with grinding wheels and stones. Aside from quality, files come in coarser and finer cuts. Grinding wheels come in different abrasive mineral, different levels of hardness, different densities, etc. Most people just buy what is convenient to find, and consider it good enough, unless they are really fussy.

Philbert

 

[Mygalomorph]

Nonsense. Unless chain chisels/cutters are very different to knives, there is no reason why a mechanised process cannot get the teeth every bit as sharp, and faster.



Again, codswallop. There is no scientific evidence for that at all.



You seem to be a believer in, and promoter of, old wives tales. The one about "files are best" is prevalent in chainsaw forums I note, and especially here.

If you

1. work in good, strong light (and for old guys like me, use an illuminated magnifying headset)
2. avoid bluing the metal by using a quick, sensitive touch
3. hold the cutter still with a finger on the back edge (both immobilizes the cutter and alerts you to overheating)
4. watch the top of the cutter as you sharpen — the "roll back" on the top of the chain cutter goes away when sharpening
5. let the stone turn into the top of the cutter, not the bottom
6. move the stone backwards and forwards as you work to avoid creating a "waist" on the stone (changing the diameter of the stone at one point)

...then you will get razor sharp cutters FASTER and EASIER than you can by working with a file.

Miss any of the above points, and you could end up with blunt or de-tempered cutters, and you'll be a candidate for believing old wives tales.

Note: loss of temper means loss of sharpness. Even the sharpest looking cutter, if detempered, will become blunt so fast that it will seem as if it was never sharp. I suspect this is why hand filing is so popular — it's virtually impossible to remove the temper that way.

I would have hand filed both sides of teeths, adjusted the rakers, topped up with fuel and oil and started the saw before you were done with just ONE side of the cutters.
Go figure, why all us pro's use handfiling, if an superior method was available, it would certainly be implemented in the trade.
That being said, harvester operators very often use fully automatic grinders for the chains, but it's also a quite different ballgame, and those grinders cost like 1500+ $

 

[AVB]

Tnx Philbert that help me to make my mind up to stay with the hand sharping as it probably take me less time to sharpen by hand then fool around setting cutter position everytime since I only sharpen a handful chains each month.

 

[SawTroll]

Exactly. Like many tools, straight razors, axes, saw chain, etc, the factory edge is just a starting point - done quickly and cheaply. This makes sense because the edge will quickly wear and need to be refreshed over and over by the user anyway, who must have the ability to sharpen it as part of being able to use it. And this is usually done by hand. The purpose of automation is to reduce costs, rarely to improve the product.

That mostly is true, and certainly when it comes to saw chain sharpening.

 

[GerrySM]

Like many tools, straight razors, axes, saw chain, etc, the factory edge is just a starting point - done quickly and cheaply. This makes sense because the edge will quickly wear and need to be refreshed over and over by the user anyway, who must have the ability to sharpen it as part of being able to use it. And this is usually done by hand. The purpose of automation is to reduce costs, rarely to improve the product.

No, it's not a cost issue. Many items come with deliberately blunt edges for legal liability reasons, others come with absolutely razored edges. It depends on the individual manufacturer's policies, and has nothing to do with any inherent technical inferiority vis-a-vis hand sharpening, and nothing to do with cost.

Fact is, automated sharpening is quicker and can produce just as fine an edge as manual sharpening. If you doubt this, I refer you to the book (which I own) called "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" by Leonard Lee, which is regarded as the sharpening Bible. Lee is very much in favor of automated sharpening, and classes manual sharpening as the last option, e.g. page 108 on gouge sharpening: "...my last choice would be a manual method..."

I would have hand filed both sides of teeths, adjusted the rakers, topped up with fuel and oil and started the saw before you were done with just ONE side of the cutters. Go figure, why all us pro's use handfiling, if an superior method was available, it would certainly be implemented in the trade.

I think if you watch the videos I posted earlier in the thread, you'll have to concede that your claim of being able to service your chain in less time than it takes to do one cutter is just complete hyperbole. The "pros" use handfiling mostly because they sharpen in the field and automated sharpeners are (mostly) non-portable (although in the last decade or so, some battery driven options have arrived).

Tnx Philbert that help me to make my mind up to stay with the hand sharping as it probably take me less time to sharpen by hand then fool around setting cutter position everytime since I only sharpen a handful chains each month.

"Setting cutter positions" is a requirement with only some automated methods, not all.

 

[Chris-PA]

Fact is, automated sharpening is quicker and can produce just as fine an edge as manual sharpening. If you doubt this, I refer you to the book (which I own) called "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" by Leonard Lee, which is regarded as the sharpening Bible. Lee is very much in favor of automated sharpening, and classes manual sharpening as the last option, e.g. page 108 on gouge sharpening: "...my last choice would be a manual method..."

No doubt it's a good book, but people have been sharpening steel edges since long before that book was written, me included. You follow your book, I'll follow my experience. Best of luck, I'm done with this thread as it's just become beating a dead horse.

 

[GerrySM]

No doubt it's a good book, but people have been sharpening steel edges since long before that book was written, me included. You follow your book, I'll follow my experience. Best of luck, I'm done with this thread as it's just become beating a dead horse.

Thanks for your contributions to the thread. I suspect your conclusion would be different if you'd tried some of the newer methods, such as shown in the videos. I'm stunned by my early results.

I suspect that the typical electric sharpener, with a spinning disc on a chop-saw assembly, has some inherent weaknesses that have alienated many chainsawyers. The angle of attack, the flatness of the disc against the cutter's cutting edge, the hassle and tedium of it, etc. But mount a burr in a hand drill and you are working quickly, pushing back at the cutter at the right angle rather than the bottom of the gullet, turning the stone into the cutter rather than across it, and moving from cutter to cutter faster than a file. Try it some day

 

[Philbert]

. . .it probably take me less time to sharpen by hand then fool around setting cutter position everytime . . .

I might not have been clear. The user advances the chain for each cutter, but the position and angles are all set once for the chain loop. It's just not 'automatic'.

Check out some of the videos on YouTube, such as this one (set up starts around 9 minutes in): .

Philbert

 

[CR888]

EVERY race saw competitor that I have ever seen/heard of ALL use hand files to sharpen their chains. I have used near every method of chain sharpening and do near all of my chains on a grinder. I use a grinder as its fast and 100ths of a second don't matter to me for work chains. However the sharpest chains I have used have been hand filed. I can notice quite a difference actually. You can still get a chain sharp with a grinder, stone, carbide bit or whatever. Do what works for you and gives 'you' the best results. The last thing I want to do after a full day sawing/pole sawing is get home and hand file 5-15 chains. I enjoy it on my terms but work chain gets minimal time spent on it, a grinder does this well.

 

[scheffa]

Are doctors scalpels sharpened by hand??

 

[GerrySM]

Are doctors scalpels sharpened by hand??

LOL good point. I hear they are hand sharpened by a little old Troll living under a bridge, with a hand file. That's the only way to make something as sharp as a scalpel!

(Sharpening money shot from 2:21 onwards)

Another vote for automated sharpening, I'm afraid.

 

[AVB]

I might not have been clear. The user advances the chain for each cutter, but the position and angles are all set once for the chain loop. It's just not 'automatic'.
Philbert

As clear as mud...and maybe I wasn't clear with my question either.

I knew the angles are set locked in but didn't see how cutter position was fixed. After downloading the manual for the HF unit I now see that there appears to be a adjustable spring loaded cutter stop and I was thinking along a slightly different path. It might be usable once I learn how set it up and use it properly.

I still will probably like hand filing better after all screwed up chains done by others on this type of grinder (chop saw) that I had to straighten out. Some were so bad I just tossed them and install new chains especially those with the tie straps half cut.

 

[GerrySM]

I still will probably like hand filing better after all screwed up chains done by others on this type of grinder (chop saw) that I had to straighten out.

Yep, can't see myself ever buying one of those chop-saw style tools

 

[Philbert]

I still will probably like hand filing better after all screwed up chains done by others on this type of grinder (chop saw) that I had to straighten out.

You can screw up a perfectly good chain with a file too.

I see a lot of top filed bevels; R cutters half the length of L cutters; top plate angles 5 degrees or more different between R and Left cutters; gullets filed down to the tie straps; depth gauges filed too low and too flat; etc., etc., etc.

I use a 511A style grinder to even out and clean up many of these.

Any method can be used to sharpen a chain, if you know what you are doing, and if you know what you want the final cutter to look like.

Any method can be used to ruin a chain. Guys who think of a grinder as equivalent to a 'chop saw' are usually the ones who overheat and 'burn' cutters.

Lot of threads on this. The OP was asking about sharpening one type of chain, so I wil be dropping out if it just continues as a 'filing versus grinding' re-hash thread.

Philbert

 

[GerrySM]

Guys who think of a grinder as equivalent to a 'chop saw' are usually the ones who overheat and 'burn' cutters.

Um ... the term chop saw is just to describe the tool's format. It's identical to a chop saw.

The OP was asking about sharpening one type of chain, so I wil be dropping out if it just continues as a 'filing versus grinding' re-hash thread.

My question was answered by a Oregon spokesman early in the thread.

 

[AVB]

My question was answered by a Oregon spokesman early in the thread.

This I understood this and can see what Oregon reasoning was as the chain might be a little grabby.

The following is not directed at GerrySm but I am tired of being snap at for trying a have a reasonable discuss. 6 yrs is enough.

As for me asking what I thought be a somewhat simple question; I should had not even asked and won't in the future.

It seems I get snapped at nearly everytime I post on AS so I will refrain from further posts here on this forum. I will continue read posts, just not responding even if I know the answer.

 

[GerrySM]

Don't be so sensitive, AVB! I'm a relative newbie here and the regulars are falling over themselves trying to stomp on me, but it's like water off a duck's back to me. On all male-oriented forums you'll get a bunch of big swinging dicks (BSDs), you just have to become immune to them.

The knife forums are the WORST (cough*bladeforums.com*cough)

 

[Chris-PA]

I'm not sure if Oregon still is marketing the 33/34/35SL themselves, but at least it has been used as OEM chain by some saw brands until recently.

I lightly rocked one of my modified 33SL loops this weekend and had to fix it, so I got a picture. It'll cut some wood yet:

 

[SawTroll]

I lightly rocked one of my modified 33SL loops this weekend and had to fix it, so I got a picture. It'll cut some wood yet:
View attachment 521027

Yes - and a 33SL minus the large bumpers on the tie straps becomes a 33LG, for all practical purposes - a low profile chisel chain on a regular (not NK) size chassis.