OWB v. Wood Stove

[Marc]

Shoot, let's face the real fact...no matter what design is used, wood burning efficiencies can never approach what is currently acheived by using fossil fuels....even with a gasifier.

Well, it's true due to the nature of the fuel, being a solid and generally much more complex when turned into a gas, that high combustion efficiences are harder to achieve than with liquid fuels that vaporize into a relatively small range of compounds. It certainly doesn't mean we shouldn't try, though. Separating the pyrolysis from the combustion, as gasifying designs do, is definitely heading in the right direction.

 

[Marc]

Stoves are not meant to heat a whole home.
They are not ducted and therefore like one said it get's too hot in that main room of the stove.Dust seems to be a concern.
Bugs and smoke too.

Surely that depends on the design of the home, does it not? There are lots of people that design and build their homes around the principles of convective circulation and thermal mass heat storage. Stoves are not meant to heat a whole home any more than they are meant to heat a whole home. In other words, as far as I know, stove designers don't take such things into account when they design a stove, that's the job of the house's designer. A stove is simply a (majority) radiative, point source heater. What one does with that heat from that point on is another story altogether.

 

[Windwalker7]

I used an indoor stove for about 3-4 years. I had a problem with carpenter ants. I brought in some wood and went down a few hours later to add some more and had carpenter ants everywhere. This was in January.

Water won't freeze in your lines if you have a fire in OWB!!!



I have some half rotted oak here now that is infested with termites, want to bring that in your home?

I've had both type furnaces. I feel the OWB is less work. and I don't see it using 60% more wood. I admit I might use 20%-30% more but not 60%.

Look how many times indoor furnace users handle their wood. In addition to having to split it. Then they handle each split. So if you split a log into 4 pieces, you are now handling four times as much wood.

If I throw 5 logs into my wood burner, you would be throwing 20 in yours.


Like I said, I've had both and the OWB is less work for me.

No mess in home and no fire hazards. No worry of chimney fires. No climbing on the roof to clean out the chimney.

 

[CrappieKeith]

You can say whatever...I was quoting a study done by the state of N.Y. 4 years ago. They said owb's were 30% to 50% at best.

I go through 5-6 cords a 8 month heating season not 15-18 cords a heating season like you would in the same house with a boilr up here in northern Mn.
Multiply that over 25 years which the owb will not last,but if it did we would be talking on the low end 125 cords for my furnace vs. 375.
250 more cords......please.
a lb of wood is a lb of wood no matter how big the piece of wood is.


Marc...I agree that if you build your home in an open fashion with ceiling fans a guy can do a pretty good job of heating the whole home with a bigger stove.Especially is states that do not see temps much below 0.
Most guys I know have homes already built. They have sealed off basements that need heat to keeep water lines from freezing.We live in temps of 0-40 below zero....talk about heat load!
They have rooms with doors and hallways leading to these rooms. The homes are also 50-70 foot long.So heres where ducting comes into play.
You'll also need a back up source of heat .Here's where a multifuel comes in handy.
No stove I know have gas or oil burning as well as wood in the same appliance.

I'm not saying that stoves or OWB's do not have there place in the market.
They do in fact and work well for some people.
I was just pointing out through this thread that maybe a furnace could be a better choice and I posted the differences that I see.
What do I know...rhetorical...don't answer.
Not everyone should get an OWB or a stove or a furnace. Some can't with their local codes.
I can't and don't sell everyone I talk to a Yukon furnace, but the folks that do buy them are happy and compared to what they had been doing with wood they say this was a better option for them.....

 

[beerman6]

1 had his pipe freeze and burst.It cost thousands for the backhoe guy to rip up his yard and drive way to repair the water lines.

Sounds like bad planning there.

 

[twofer]

A comparison between indoor "gasifiers" and OWB's is a better one. But that's been beat to death as well.

Agreed

But I have to say that I think that it should be beat to death over and over. It's time to start thinking more about efficiency. Just because wood is very plentiful for those of us who use it doesn't mean shouldn't be talking about it's conservation as the benefits of efficiency go beyond just cutting less wood.

 

[miller1]

You can say whatever...I was quoting a study done by the state of N.Y. 4 years ago. They said owb's were 30% to 50% at best.

I go through 5-6 cords a 8 month heating season not 15-18 cords a heating season like you would in the same house with a boilr up here in northern Mn.
Multiply that over 25 years which the owb will not last,but if it did we would be talking on the low end 125 cords for my furnace vs. 375.
250 more cords......please.
a lb of wood is a lb of wood no matter how big the piece of wood is.


How big is your house? mine is 1500 sq ft not including my full finished basement that is heated and i heat my water, i live in Mi where it gets down to well below 0° many days. Heating with my OWB for the entire heating season i am using the same amount of wood that you are. Even on days when it never gets above 0 i only put wood in 2 times in a 24 hour period. I am just trying to understand why all the negative talk because i have not experianced any of the high usage or smoke that is complained about.

 

[twofer]

You can say whatever...I was quoting a study done by the state of N.Y. 4 years ago. They said owb's were 30% to 50% at best.

I go through 5-6 cords a 8 month heating season not 15-18 cords a heating season like you would in the same house with a boilr up here in northern Mn.
Multiply that over 25 years which the owb will not last,but if it did we would be talking on the low end 125 cords for my furnace vs. 375.
250 more cords......please.
a lb of wood is a lb of wood no matter how big the piece of wood is.

How big is your house? mine is 1500 sq ft not including my full finished basement that is heated and i heat my water, i live in Mi where it gets down to well below 0° many days. Heating with my OWB for the entire heating season i am using the same amount of wood that you are. Even on days when it never gets above 0 i only put wood in 2 times in a 24 hour period. I am just trying to understand why all the negative talk because i have not experianced any of the high usage or smoke that is complained about.

To be perfectly blunt all the "negative talk" about OWB's is just being truthful about their flaws. Now there are varying degrees of efficiency they can be run at, like any wood burning device, but by the fundamentals of their design compared to other ways of heating with wood IMO they are the most inefficient way to heat. They are going to go through more wood and most of that is going to be due to the large firebox design which leads to smoldering loss. If they were loaded with smaller hotter fires and reloaded more often or just had a smaller overall firebox design and better matched up to the heating load they were servicing they'd be more efficient. But that's not why people buy them. People buy them so they have to load them infrequently and you can't do that and expect high efficiency. Without some sort of thermal storage it just isn't possible.

In addition to all of that without secondary combustion the OWB's are missing out on a ton of available BTU's that are just going up the flue.

And yes I do run a gasifier so I am a bit biased but I believe everything I've said to be factual.

 

[Windwalker7]

I believe some of those "flaws" are exagerated.

I don't burn 15-18 cords of wood in a season and don't know anyone who does. miller1 lives in MI too and says he doesn't burn 15-18 cords neither.

Yes, they smoke but not as bad as some claim. I have two neighbors. One neighbor retired and big into camping. He says the smell reminds him of camping. The other neighbor is an oldtimer that says he likes the smell of wood smoke in the air.

Seems like its always the neighbors that like to complain. Claims about the smoke smelling bad and being "gut wrenching" makes me laugh, especially coming from a guy that sells wood furnaces.

We can talk efficiencies but then we should all go back to fossil fuels, as someone else stated.

The fact that I can burn, rotted, insect infested, green, soft, wet wood is a plus. I favor seasoned wood but its nice to have the ability to burn other stuff.

Here are some pics of my OWB idling right now. Notice you don't see huge clouds of gut wrenching smoke billowing from the stack. Second pic shows it has an actual fire in it.

 

[beagledog]

Dang Windwalker, just looking at that pic made my gut wrench..ahgggg!!!! When I bought my owb I knew what I was getting into and knew what I was getting away from(2 indoor burners). I'm happy and that's all that matters. Serious wood burning of any kind is more of a lifestyle, if you ask me.

 

[yodayoda]

I couldn't wait till fall to fire up my owb. Love the smell of birch when it burns. I don't have a have any close neighbors, so thats not an issue.. I used arox 11 cord to heat my older 1500 sq foot house, 36*42 shop and DHW. Overall I'm very happy with my owb.

I think a few people have givin a bad name to owb, burning garbage, green wood, to close to neighbors, etc.

Also, if you don't enjoy cutting wood, don't buy one.

 

[Butch(OH)]

I heated with stoves for 30 years and went with an OWB 4 years ago to heat the same house and shop that was being heated with the stoves. My total wood usage has remained so close I call it the same and I am heating my dmoestic water needs also. Every OWB tha I have personaly seen that hogs wood is one of two things. No, or bad line insulation or a Hardy (sry guys) I will never go back to stoves unless the commies ban the OWB. There is a reason that so many OWBs are sold and it aint because there are 1000s wish is to live in the woods 24/7 to keep the fuel cut. Oh ya, I was supposed to be comparing to a woodstove. I dont miss cleaning chimneys, smoke in the house every 50 degree windy day, ash dust and getting up to fix the fires. I do miss crawling up beside it and warming my bones.

 

[modn]

I grew up with a a wood furnace in the house. We fed it up to 10 cords per heating season. Today I heat 2900 sqft and can control the heat like I was burning oil. My OWB consumes 7ish cords a year. To me that isn't bad. I could've put a wood furnace inside, but with the expense of putting up a chimney also I decided not to, along with my boy having slight asthma. I do not believe 40-50% more consumption though. Doing the math with amount of btu's in fuel oil my oil burner consumed in the past compared to the wood I burn and it is pretty close. I'm very happy with my decision.

 

[twofer]

I believe some of those "flaws" are exagerated.

I don't burn 15-18 cords of wood in a season and don't know anyone who does. miller1 lives in MI too and says he doesn't burn 15-18 cords neither.

How do you believe they are exaggerated?

Yes, they smoke but not as bad as some claim. I have two neighbors. One neighbor retired and big into camping. He says the smell reminds him of camping. The other neighbor is an oldtimer that says he likes the smell of wood smoke in the air.

Seems like its always the neighbors that like to complain. Claims about the smoke smelling bad and being "gut wrenching" makes me laugh, especially coming from a guy that sells wood furnaces.

I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device. What stops people from doing this in stoves, furnaces, and boilers? Safety. It is unsafe to burn wood like that without the risk of a future chimney fire. Whereas on the other hand people will claim that the ability to burn this wood is a "feature" of an OWB.

Here's a little anecdotal evidence from a guy who doesn't sell furnaces and is pretty easy going. One of my neighbors has an OWB and from what I can see he uses the "ability" of an OWB to burn green wood quite a bit. My home sits 1900 feet off the road and he's another couple hundred yards up the road. Sometimes when the wind is right I can smell that smoke dragon puffing away. Does it bother me? No, I like the smell. Can I see it bothering someone else? Heck yes and especially if you live close to this guy. There is no reason anyone should have to put up with someone's smoke like that on their own private property, they have a right to that.

We can talk efficiencies but then we should all go back to fossil fuels, as someone else stated.

I know I'm being a bit argumentative here and I'm sorry but I just can't get behind logic like that. Just because we can't be as efficient as a fossil fuels doesn't mean we should just give up on trying to achieve higher efficiency. That kind of logic totally ignores the fact that wood is a cheaper fuel source for heating purposes.

There are efficiency gains to be had in burning wood and to ignore them is just a cop out.

 

[Windwalker7]

How do you believe they are exaggerated?





I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device. What stops people from doing this in stoves, furnaces, and boilers? Safety. It is unsafe to burn wood like that without the risk of a future chimney fire. Whereas on the other hand people will claim that the ability to burn this wood is a "feature" of an OWB.

Here's a little anecdotal evidence from a guy who doesn't sell furnaces and is pretty easy going. One of my neighbors has an OWB and from what I can see he uses the "ability" of an OWB to burn green wood quite a bit. My home sits 1900 feet off the road and he's another couple hundred yards up the road. Sometimes when the wind is right I can smell that smoke dragon puffing away. Does it bother me? No, I like the smell. Can I see it bothering someone else? Heck yes and especially if you live close to this guy. There is no reason anyone should have to put up with someone's smoke like that on their own private property, they have a right to that.



I know I'm being a bit argumentative here and I'm sorry but I just can't get behind logic like that. Just because we can't be as efficient as a fossil fuels doesn't mean we should just give up on trying to achieve higher efficiency. That kind of logic totally ignores the fact that wood is a cheaper fuel source for heating purposes.

There are efficiency gains to be had in burning wood and to ignore them is just a cop out.

People touting the wood usage of an OWB is exagerated. I used the example of miller1. He lives in roughly the same climate and uses nowhere near 15-18 cords of wood per heating season. Other OWB owners have chimed in on this thread claimiming that they use nowhere near the amount of wood that nonOWB users are claiming......That is an exageration!

Stories of huge gut wrenching clouds of smoke pouring out of the chimneys is an exageration.

Those pics in my post are of rotted, bug infested wood burning, yet you claim that burning such wood will, and I quote "I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device."


I burn the rotted, stuff now and save the good stuff for colder weather.

People naturally want to think what they have is best.

You said..........I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device. What stops people from doing this in stoves, furnaces, and boilers? Safety. It is unsafe to burn wood like that without the risk of a future chimney fire. Whereas on the other hand people will claim that the ability to burn this wood is a "feature" of an OWB."


It is a feature. A safety feature perhaps. We don't worry about chimney fires.

Your neighbor uses his OWB to burn green wood. Thankfully you don't have a problem with the smell as others have. But you need to understand, neighbors, or just plain people in general, like to complain about what other neighbors are doing.

They complain about dogs barking, chickens crowing, property lines, ATV noise, the smell of cows or horses...etc.

We had some neighbors that recently moved here from in town (city folks). One day they approached my wife and I and wanted us to sign a petiton against our other neighbors about one guy's dogs barking and another guy's chickens crowing. We refused.


They seemed a little upset that we wouldn't sign. I told them that those sounds are part of country life and I had no problem with it. If they didn't like it, move back in town.

You see, that is the problem. neighbors just like to complain what the other guy is doing. You always hear people complaining about having neighbors with loud ATVs. Even though the ATV owners ride on their own property. They call it noise polution. Isn't it funny that the complaining neighbor's lawn mower is louder than the ATV?

I'm getting off track here.


You said....."I know I'm being a bit argumentative here and I'm sorry but I just can't get behind logic like that. Just because we can't be as efficient as a fossil fuels doesn't mean we should just give up on trying to achieve higher efficiency. That kind of logic totally ignores the fact that wood is a cheaper fuel source for heating purposes.

There are efficiency gains to be had in burning wood and to ignore them is just a cop out."

My logic is, there are those "green everything eco whacko's" that would have a problem with you. They'd say your gassifier creates polution and that you shouldn't have it.

They might advise you to switch to solar or wind technology or something like that. Heat with natural gas maybe, its more "efficient" causes less polution? Isn't that the same thing you are telling OWB owners?

Hopefully one of your neighbors will have a problem listening to your chainsaw in the back yard. Is it fair for you to create noise polution so that your neighbor can't even listen to the birds sing from his very own back porch? Why should you be allowed to disturb the whole neighborhood's peace and quiet.


I know I'm being a little too critical. I'm just trying to make the point, that neighbors just complain and are never happy unless they are complaining.


We had a neighbor complaining about another neighbor's horses smelling. Its that bad. People just like to complain.



Thank God my closest neighbor is about 600 ft away.

 

[bowtechmadman]

I like my OWB for all the reasons stated. I heat 4000sq ft and my 30x40 barn (heat it only when i'm in it, weekends generally), and my DHW. I'd say i use approx. 10 - 12 cords. Like many I burn some nasty half rotted wood in the fall, saving my better, seasoned stuff for colder temps.
Each to their own.
I also like the fact I don't have a neighbor w/in 1000 yds.

 

[twofer]

People touting the wood usage of an OWB is exagerated. I used the example of miller1. He lives in roughly the same climate and uses nowhere near 15-18 cords of wood per heating season. Other OWB owners have chimed in on this thread claimiming that they use nowhere near the amount of wood that nonOWB users are claiming......That is an exageration!

Getting caught up in the numbers is really just splitting hairs as there are a number of factors that influence how much wood is used. What it comes down to it if you had an OWB and a gasifier hooked up to the same home with all other factors being the same the gasifier is going to use less wood. The temperatures that the OWB produces are below what a gasifier can produce therefore even with an OWB operating at peak efficiency it is still not exchanging the same amount of BTU's for the same amount of wood.

Stories of huge gut wrenching clouds of smoke pouring out of the chimneys is an exageration.

No it's really not. There are plenty of pictures out on the net if you get your Google on. On top of that I've personally witnessed my neighbor produce a smoke cloud down our little dead end country road. If I can distinctly smell it over half a mile a way then that is unacceptable for those who are living next to him. There is reasonable amounts of intrusion onto others property and then there is producing an obnoxious amount of smoke that drifts onto others' property. That is highly disrespectful and he has no right to put that much smoke onto others' property, regardless of how "country" that is.

Those pics in my post are of rotted, bug infested wood burning, yet you claim that burning such wood will, and I quote "I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device."


I burn the rotted, stuff now and save the good stuff for colder weather.

If you burn green wood it will smoke more than seasoned wood and it will put more particulates in the air.

People naturally want to think what they have is best.

Human nature I 'spose but it's hard to ignore the arguments in efficiency.

You said..........I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device. What stops people from doing this in stoves, furnaces, and boilers? Safety. It is unsafe to burn wood like that without the risk of a future chimney fire. Whereas on the other hand people will claim that the ability to burn this wood is a "feature" of an OWB."


It is a feature. A safety feature perhaps. We don't worry about chimney fires.

I don't agree that being able to safely burn wood that is putting more particulates in the air is a feature.

My logic is, there are those "green everything eco whacko's" that would have a problem with you. They'd say your gassifier creates polution and that you shouldn't have it.

They might advise you to switch to solar or wind technology or something like that. Heat with natural gas maybe, its more "efficient" causes less polution? Isn't that the same thing you are telling OWB owners?

I think you are missing my point here. My point isn't that OWB's are all bad but rather we have cleaner and more efficient ways of burning wood at this point.

Hopefully one of your neighbors will have a problem listening to your chainsaw in the back yard. Is it fair for you to create noise polution so that your neighbor can't even listen to the birds sing from his very own back porch? Why should you be allowed to disturb the whole neighborhood's peace and quiet.


I know I'm being a little too critical. I'm just trying to make the point, that neighbors just complain and are never happy unless they are complaining.


We had a neighbor complaining about another neighbor's horses smelling. Its that bad. People just like to complain.



Thank God my closest neighbor is about 600 ft away.

That's kind of an odd thing to wish on someone. *confused*

My closest neighbor is over 1900 feet (that's how long my driveway is) away so if my chainsaw is loud enough to be bothering them then I'm probably destroying my hearing anyways.

 

[twofer]

I like my OWB for all the reasons stated. I heat 4000sq ft and my 30x40 barn (heat it only when i'm in it, weekends generally), and my DHW. I'd say i use approx. 10 - 12 cords. Like many I burn some nasty half rotted wood in the fall, saving my better, seasoned stuff for colder temps.
Each to their own.
I also like the fact I don't have a neighbor w/in 1000 yds.

What if you could produce more BTU's from a less amount of wood and not even have to worry about burning nasty half rotted wood?

 

[flotek]

this thread kinda reminds of the guy at the local restaurant who tokes on a big cigar in the booth right beside yours and the whole area is totally engulfed in a cloud of stale smoke while you and your family try to choke your steak quickly so you can leave. its the old "hey thats just too bad for them cause its my right to smoke up the place if i want to " attitude that gets wood burning bans started and then everyone suffers.seems to me if a guy wants to deal with 8 -10 cords only to heat a small house and or shop running his OWB thats fine with me...its his back ,that is totally your right but smoking up the neighborhood is irresponible IMHO .and regardless of what applicance you prefer if your going to burn wood atleast dont be an a$$ about it , season the stuff first. green wood has just over half the BTU of properly seasoned wood and time and preparation is *free! so dont make extra work for yourself and smoke up the town because your lazy and inconsiderate

 

[Windwalker7]

Getting caught up in the numbers is really just splitting hairs as there are a number of factors that influence how much wood is used. What it comes down to it if you had an OWB and a gasifier hooked up to the same home with all other factors being the same the gasifier is going to use less wood. The temperatures that the OWB produces are below what a gasifier can produce therefore even with an OWB operating at peak efficiency it is still not exchanging the same amount of BTU's for the same amount of wood.




No it's really not. There are plenty of pictures out on the net if you get your Google on. On top of that I've personally witnessed my neighbor produce a smoke cloud down our little dead end country road. If I can distinctly smell it over half a mile a way then that is unacceptable for those who are living next to him. There is reasonable amounts of intrusion onto others property and then there is producing an obnoxious amount of smoke that drifts onto others' property. That is highly disrespectful and he has no right to put that much smoke onto others' property, regardless of how "country" that is.




If you burn green wood it will smoke more than seasoned wood and it will put more particulates in the air.




Human nature I 'spose but it's hard to ignore the arguments in efficiency.



I don't agree that being able to safely burn wood that is putting more particulates in the air is a feature.



I think you are missing my point here. My point isn't that OWB's are all bad but rather we have cleaner and more efficient ways of burning wood at this point.



That's kind of an odd thing to wish on someone. *confused*

My closest neighbor is over 1900 feet (that's how long my driveway is) away so if my chainsaw is loud enough to be bothering them then I'm probably destroying my hearing anyways.

I agree, The gasifier burns less wood and is more efficiient.

I agree that OWB smoke. Sometimes they smoke alot. I agree there too.

We can really split hairs if you want. Your car driving down the road emits polution and it is causing acid rain that falls on my truck. You buy stuff made in China that caused me to get laid off. The pesticide and fertilizer you dump on your lawn is causing birds to feed their young tainted insects and they are dieing in my yard.

But seriously, you are complaining about your neighbors wood smoke you can smell 1/2 mile away and you are offended. Yet you burn wood? You sound like some of my neighbors.

The original poster was asking about wood stoves and OWBs. Now here we are comparing Gasifiers and OWBs.

What you are doing, comparing the two, is similar to as if some yahoo would come on this site and complain that your chainsaw is a 2 stroke. They'd tell you should have a 4 stroke because it is more efficient and doesn't polute as bad, and is quieter.

He could be just like you and saying we should all strive to cut down on polution and burn less gasoline in chainsaws. This is exactly what you are doing in this thread about OWB and gasifiers.

Would you go out and buy a 4 stroke chain saw? What he is saying is true though. I agree with what you are saying about the gasifier being more efficient.

As long as we OWBs are having fun cutting wood, heating our homes, can find enough wood and don't have any complaining neighbors that are close to us, what is your point?

Oh yeah, at 1900 ft, I would be able to hear your chainsaw just like you would get a whiff of wood smoke. That is totally unacceptable. I want to hear birds, dammit!