OWB's and lotsa wood.

[Como]

For a better understanding on how these OWB systems work, what they actually entail, here is a file from Central Boiler with several different setups. So yes, I do have an understanding even if I do live in a more temperate climate that some of y'all. However, that does not mean there are no OWB's in this area. I have seen several and there is one down the road a piece, but like I said, they would not suit my purpose.

http://www.centralboiler.com/media/CBSystemDiagrams.pdf

A friend has a CB, runs it pretty much year around, anyway they were running out of wood, their usual supplier failed and I had a few cords that were cut a little long so I dropped them off, keep them going for a few weeks.

I did not like the idea of loading in the wind and the cold, so have a building in which my IWB is in, big enough for my water system, a few weeks of wood and some other stuff. Then insulated pex into the main building. Best of both. And per btu I will use a lot less wood.

I would totally agree with the well insulated passive solar approach, then the issue goes away It gets cold here, really cold, a friend has a 5,000 sq ft house, very well built and insulated, they heat mainly with 2 stoves due to the distance, but it is an unusual day when Solar does not do the job. In the little house that we have which is very well insulated and well positioned the stove will cook us out, there is electrical back up but that only really kicks in at night is we are away. And is pretty minimal, no way a Boiler system would be logical for this house.

 

[roostersgt]

Been reading up on those OWB units lately. Intriguing to say the least. Maybe someday I'll pop for one for our cabin in the hills. For now, like many of us older guys, getting up in the middle of the night to re-load the wood stove isn't really anything "extra". I get up at least twice a night since getting older anyways. When staying at the cabin, it just means stopping short of the bathroom for a few seconds, bending over, and throwing another log on the coals. No problem. Doesn't really heat much over 70-74 during the winters there, as it's in the teens most of the time, but the price is right and we only burn around 2 cords per year. I'm not against getting a OWB later. To the contrary, I think it might have great advantages, especially coupled with a wood stove. BTW, we also own a generator because of frequent power outages due to excessive snow fall and downed power lines etc...

To be fair, we only go there for a couple of days each week to ski and get out of the valley, so it's safe to say we'd be burning much more wood if we were there full time. Another thing, the wife really enjoys feeding the fire and burning every single combustible thing she can think of. Gives he something to do, I guess, while I watch cable TV. The downside, as has been stated here, is the ash and wood mess inside the cabin. Lots of clean up. It's still far better in my opinion than having to pay for gas, propane or electric heat. Our bill is only around $40-$55 per month, and I keep our well insulated "no frills" hot tub on year 'round.

 

[FLHX Storm]

FLHX, remind me again, how many sq ft are you heating? Not sure what the temp is there but tonight it's -13 C or 9 F here. With wind chill it feels like -23 C or -9 F. It's going to be -17 C or 1.5F tomorrow. Gonna be some smoke around here for the next few days. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the wind gusting to 49 kms or 30 mph.

Shoot, I've ridden my motorcycle in colder temperatures than that when I lived up north. 20 below (Fahrenheit) not counting the wind chill on a Harley Softail Custom. No windshield n no heated gear, no thermal undies with my regular clothing, and a leather jacket. My average speed was 70mph with at least 20mph head winds. Oh, n no helmet either. Sounds to me like y'all need to buck up and grow a set. Damn kids anyway (yes I know your 50, AIM is 44 and J1M is 38) otstir: :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Blazin]

For the money of one of those OWBs though, I would superinsulate (as close as I could)the house first and be done with it. Drop demand to hardly anything at all.

Insulation always trumps in the ROI arena over burning more fuel, in whatever heating device you have.

There is NOTHING made more efficient, furnace, stove, owb, any make or model or price (just talking about space heating now) than not needing it in the first place.

Until someone has actually seen and experienced a true bonafide superinsulated structure..meh, you wont believe it just reading about it.

Very true, which is what I'm in the middle of doing now. One house I'm heating I've replaced windows and beefed up the insulation 5 years ago, the other is completely gutted now and is getting new windows and foam insulation (R42 ceilings and R28 walls). Hopefully I'll sell my house this spring and get moved into the new place, then I'll be just heating the newly renovated "super insulated" shack and a 4 bay garage (kept at 40° unless I'm using it). I'm willing to bet I'll see a 60% or better drop in wood usage. I'll still be using the OWB, but I got a little heater I built just to blow the chill off in the spring and fall :msp_wink:

 

[AIM]

I have read about these super insulated homes. Apparently if built correctly. They are only heated during the very cold periods. Even at that point it supposedly takes very little additional heat.
The rest of the time the heat from appliances, body heat, etc actually is enough to keep the structure warm.
I wish I had looked into these when I built my house. If I had though I wouldn't be here right now. No way I'd burn wood if I could heat my house for $20 a month.:msp_biggrin:

 

[Uncle John]

Shoot, I've ridden my motorcycle in colder temperatures than that when I lived up north. 20 below (Fahrenheit) not counting the wind chill on a Harley Softail Custom. No windshield n no heated gear, no thermal undies with my regular clothing, and a leather jacket. My average speed was 70mph with at least 20mph head winds. Oh, n no helmet either. Sounds to me like y'all need to buck up and grow a set. Damn kids anyway (yes I know your 50, AIM is 44 and J1M is 38) otstir: :hmm3grin2orange:

You forgot to mention shorts and flip flops!

 

[chaikwa]

Here's a basic plan to build one. Cost is about $2000 it says to build.

Yep, that can be done. You can get Yugo's real cheap too, doesn't mean I want one!

I'm still waiting for the explanation of how I can heat that 17 room house with a woodstove. Did I mention it has no basement?

Our house would cost a mint to make efficient, probably be $30 000 plus just to replace the windows.

So would ours. We looked into it and the cost between the 2 buildings was going to exceed $45,000. And the house is something we plan on selling as soon as the old bat kicks the bucket anyway, so there's no way we're dumping money, and TIME, into that dive!

Ouch. I thought we were just having a fun discussion here.

It seems from the tone of some of the posts that a fight was what they came looking for from the get-go. They found it!

Naaa, just wait for the next extended power outage....

We already went over that.

... A little doohicky called an aquastat senses water temp and kicks on a blower that feeds the fire when needed to maintain set water temp. No pressure, no zones, no relays (well the aquastat might be a relay)

I think the aquastat is more of a thermostat, but because it's sensing water temperature instead of air temperature, it gets the 'aqua' name instead of the 'thermo' name. Hmmm... that DOES sound rather complicated and intricate, doesn't it! :msp_scared:

 

[FLHX Storm]

You forgot to mention shorts and flip flops!

Oooo, now that would be a brisk ride! :msp_scared:

On a bike you'll never find me with those things on! That's just plain nuts!

BTW, I was wearing insulated gloves but my boots weren't.

 

[pennsywoodburnr]

Shoot, I've ridden my motorcycle in colder temperatures than that when I lived up north. 20 below (Fahrenheit) not counting the wind chill on a Harley Softail Custom. No windshield n no heated gear, no thermal undies with my regular clothing, and a leather jacket. My average speed was 70mph with at least 20mph head winds. Oh, n no helmet either. Sounds to me like y'all need to buck up and grow a set. Damn kids anyway (yes I know your 50, AIM is 44 and J1M is 38) otstir: :hmm3grin2orange:

Storm, being a fellow rider I'm not sure how to take this. I've also ridden in extremely cold temps. My coldest was in the single digits with a stiff 25 mph wind blowing. I had on thick socks over my boots, a t-shirt then a polartec fleece sweatshirt then a regular sweatshirt over that. Dual insulated coveralls on top of each other plus a goose down filled jacket on top of all that. Snowmobile gloves topped it all off and a full face helmet to boot. I still froze my ass off on my commute into work. Not to sound like I'm calling you out here, but I find it tough to believe you could survive for long in those temps you rode with just regular clothing and a leather jacket and no helmet. For what it's worth now, I do have an electric vest, and could never go back. Again, sorry if it sounds like I'm being combatitive here. It's just tough for me to swallow that one....

 

[FLHX Storm]

Yep, that can be done. You can get Yugo's real cheap too, doesn't mean I want one!

I'm still waiting for the explanation of how I can heat that 17 room house with a woodstove. Did I mention it has no basement?

I'm thinking you would need at least 4 woodstoves, maybe even 5, but then don't figure on getting any rest trying to keep the fires burning. Of course you would need something more efficient if your going to burn wood and the only viable option is an OWB.

BTW, I didn't come looking for a fight or have a chip on my shoulder, but if someone is going to take jabs at me both here and real life, I do tend to jab back. Point is, don't dish it out if you can't take it! This is supposed to be a mature adult forum, and some need to start acting more like adults and I should not have stooped to their level!

All I did was put out there my reasons for a wood stove and did not condemn those with OWB or IWB's. Instead of a fairly intelligent conversation to follow, I see quite a bit of sarcasm and ridicule coming from a handful directed towards me. Then geez, focusing on one or two words (complicated & intricate) without following the structure which it was used in? How adult is that? At any rate, this is the type of system I was referring to as being complicated or intricate, you choose the term.
http://www.centralboiler.com/media/CBSystemDiagrams.pdf

All I can say is I'm really sorry to have posted in this thread.

 

[FLHX Storm]

Storm, being a fellow rider I'm not sure how to take this. I've also ridden in extremely cold temps. My coldest was in the single digits with a stiff 25 mph wind blowing. I had on thick socks over my boots, a t-shirt then a polartec fleece sweatshirt then a regular sweatshirt over that. Dual insulated coveralls on top of each other plus a goose down filled jacket on top of all that. Snowmobile gloves topped it all off and a full face helmet to boot. I still froze my ass off on my commute into work. Not to sound like I'm calling you out here, but I find it tough to believe you could survive for long in those temps you rode with just regular clothing and a leather jacket and no helmet. For what it's worth now, I do have an electric vest, and could never go back. Again, sorry if it sounds like I'm being combatitive here. It's just tough for me to swallow that one....

I only lived up north for a few years and then came back south. But, the incident I mentioned is true. I just didn't mention I was in the throws of menopause for effect. I could have been out riding naked and still been too hot. I had one neighbor ask, why I was sweating when the temperature was well below zero and I was wearing nothing but a tee shirt n shorts putzing around outside. If you want their phone number, I think I can still find it and I doubt they would have forgotten that incident or me for that matter.

The coldest I rode in here was when I was closing on this property. I had my truck delivered so all I had was my bike. The temperatures were in the teens with cross winds that would curl your toes, but I was truly dressed for the cold. If it could be insulated, it was, and honestly it still wasn't enough. I was wearing a helmet at that time. Big difference between going through and gone through menopause.

The only thing electrically heated are my handgrips, once I get them installed that is. I still have them in their original packaging sitting in the garage. They've been there for about a year and a half now.

 

[chaikwa]

BTW, I didn't come looking for a fight or have a chip on my shoulder, but if someone is going to take jabs at me both here and real life, I do tend to jab back. All I did was put out there my reasons for a wood stove and did not condemn those with OWB or IWB's. I see quite a bit of sarcasm and ridicule coming from a handful directed towards me.

Really? For someone who doesn't have a chip on their shoulder, your very first post seemed pretty condescending to me. And from the responses to that post, I think there were quite a few others who thought along the same line as I did. Here's your first post in this thread:

Well, I'll tell ya, you won't ever find me using an OWB. They may be fine for some, but they don't do a thing for me. First, if the power goes off for a week in mid winter, What are you going to do? It takes electricity to run those pumps that get the heat into the house. If y'all are like many folk, they use electricity to cook with. I know do. BUT no electricity, no use of the electric stove, microwave, coffee maker and so on.

You'll never hear me complain about those hot spots you mentioned or getting up in the morning to add toothpicks to the fire to get the house where it might be considered warm because chances are, I'm up in the middle of the night anyway. I might be composing email or reading here on AS.

And if I had to deal with an electrical outage for a week, or three, I would still have my morning coffee, I would still have hot satisfying meals, my bath or shower might be a bit on the cold side, but it's not like I've never taken a cold shower before, so it's really not a big deal. But I can take hot baths. (heat the water on the wood stove) And lights, I have flashlights to find my way around and to locate the oil lamps. My refrigerator or freezer? I'd just shove em outside.

Technically, I am only dependent on electricity just a little, but I can do without it and still be nice n warm n toasty as well as being well fed through the coldest of temperatures. And you with those fancy outdoor wood burners, well, your still in the same boat along with those who run natural gas, propane, or fuel oil. Those furnaces don't run without electricity. On my little wood stove, I'm not even running the blower. So given a choice, I'll stick with my wood stove and maybe burn 2 cord of wood a year vs your OWB burning what, 9 cord a year? N next year I intend on burning one cord after I put on a new roof and do some insulating.

AND when I get my electric bill for this month, I expect it to be below 450kwh used. No fuel oil, no propane! I'd give the price, but those I believe vary state to state and whatever erroneous charges the electric company decides to tack on. Last month I was at 509kwh

One of my reasons for going with a wood stove is so that I would not longer have to be concerned about those power outages especially during the winter. So far this winter we've only had one and the power was out about a day. No worries, n no complaints here.

Or did I missinterpret your post, that your actually complaining about your OWB? Ooops!

Over-all, I get the impression you think you're just a little better than anyone who has an OWB because you're more independent from the 'outside world' and more self-reliant. I lived for 20+ years like you WANT to live, (small cabin, cut and split all my firewood by hand, woodstove to heat the whole place, no electricity, no running water in the winter), and I can tell you first hand it didn't make me any better! It made me an idiot for not taking advantage of the basic services available to me and planning in advance for instances where those services may not be available for a period of time, whether due to environmental circumstances or something I did or didn't do, like pay the electric bill. In essence, it was like not cooking food with fire because I could get by eating raw meat.

... this is the type of system I was referring to as being complicated or intricate, you choose the term.
http://www.centralboiler.com/media/CBSystemDiagrams.pdf

It is neither. A household forced hot water/baseboard heating, plumbing and wiring system is more complicated and intricate than anything in those diagrams. Hot water coming into a house from an outside boiler and going back to the boiler again is about as basic as it gets. If adding a 'Y-strainer' or a by-pass valve makes it intricate...

 

[Uncle John]

Can't we all just get along? .:msp_biggrin:

 

[H-Ranch]

Yes, I was using the wrong word. "Complicated" should have been "Intricate"

Still using the wrong word - keep trying. The only thing complicated or intricate about this thread is you trying to explain yourself when you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Marc]

Can't we all just get along? .:msp_biggrin:

Them's fightin words.

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!

 

[mizzou]

Can't we all just get along? .:msp_biggrin:

I doubt it,:msp_biggrin: interesting thread none the less.

 

[chaikwa]

Wonder how long insulated PEX line will last before the insulation starts to break down?

I don't know. But I DO know there is a huge difference between manufacturers of this product. One of my friends bought the $5 a foot stuff and his is buried 2 feet below grade and the snow melts over the piped area. Another friend has the $13 a foot stuff and the first year he had it laid out on top of the ground because the ground was frozen when he did his install. The snow covered his pex and never melted until spring.

 

[FLHX Storm]

I may not know a heck of a lot about OWB's or IWB's but from what I do know from the research I've done, and what I've been able to learn here on AS, I would never want one attached to or in my home even if it were offered free with a free install and a lifetime supply of wood.

 

[FLHX Storm]

How about long term boiler corrosion?

IF they are built like the ones that were used for heating large complexes years ago, I would imagine they would outlast the home they were attached to if they were properly maintained.

 

[Kevin in Ohio]

I may not know a heck of a lot about OWB's or IWB's but from what I do know from the research I've done, and what I've been able to learn here on AS, I would never want one attached to or in my home even if it were offered free with a free install and a lifetime supply of wood.

That is fine, you're allowed to have an OPINION like everyone else. Everyone has to find what works best for them, the pros and cons you might say.

You said the following earlier, "Oh dear, if that's all you have for an OWB, you really should get yourself a new one because one day the pressure will cause it to go boom. Yep, pressure valves, thermo switches, your pumps, relays, thermocouples, n thermostat. But then I suppose you do have an understanding of thermodynamics if none of those safeties are in place."

This shows your "research" was pretty flawed in your understanding of them so your credibility is basically shot. No harm done but MISinformation like that needs to be pointed out so others don't base their decision on false info.

Simple checking on the water will help a lot of the corrosion aspect. I've added some inhibitor ONCE to mine in 9 years now and it was only borderline then. I have a stainless version which is a whole 'nother can of worms.

If you're happy with what you have, great. Just do not spread falsehoods on an unknown.