progress using SRT for entering tall trees

[treeclimber165]

Thought I'd try to discuss something worthwhile here. Since switching over from a tautline hitch to an advanced split tail about 6 months ago, a whole new world of climbing has been opened for me. Who would have thought that after 12+ years climbing, I could increase my speed in a tree by 50% in a few short months.
The single biggest advance for me (besides a Distel hitch) has been my Pantin ankle ascender. I seem to be losing some upper body strength especially in my right arm due to nagging residue from my fall 2½ years ago, but I can now 'footlock' up into a tree faster than ever before.
After reading a LOT of info on SRT and spending weeks mulling it over in my mind, I finally tried it one day in my back yard a few months ago. I bought 2-3 different ascenders and tried to find what worked best for ME. What I've come up with and used extensively in the 100'+ Willow Oaks in NC this month is the following:
One left hand Petzl handled ascender with a 30" Loop Runner and Am'D biner.
One Petzl Pantin ankle ascender.
My friction hitch on a Williams biner.

I set my rope, tie a running boline and send it up to choke the limb. I tie in on the single line just as I would on a doubled line. Then I clip the handled ascender to the top of my friction hitch biner, so when advanced it will pull my friction hitch along. I use a 'stand/sit' method between the Pantin and handled ascender. I can cross my feet so I'm using both legs to advance, and I can also grab the handled ascender with both hands if necessary (but my right arm is weak).

Once at the top, I only need to tie a biner on the end of my rope and clip in. My friction hitch is already tied, I can store the handled ascender on my belt and the Pantin stays on my foot. This has been the easiest and fastest way I've found so far without having too much extra gear to deal with once aloft. The guys I'm climbing for are used to climbers who trim with gaffs, so I need to be faster than a gaffed climber without slowing down the job messing around with extra gear. So far they are very pleased with my speed and I'm not being told to 'just gaff it and get it done'.

Here is a pic of my ascender setup. Sorry it's kinda dark but I don't have the software to lighten it up.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Brian,

Good to see the biner lock in the top loop of the handled ascender. Doing that goes a long way in making the use of handled ascenders better for tree work.

Like someone mentioned in your TB thread, I don't think that using a friction hitch is the best choice. I'm really liking my Rocker as the lower ascender.

I've talked with friend"s who are sports trainer about the ergonomics of using the handled ascenders in an overhead position. None of them think it is a good wrist position for long term use. Adding a t-bar to the bottom hole changes your wrist position into a pullup or chinup and is better for your wrists.

Tom

 

[Frans]

A good suggestion from Greg:
adding a beener to the bottom hole will help to align the ascender to the rope and help the ascender to 'glide' up the rope as you push it up.
Frans

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think that TomD. has expressed as much expertise in SRT as we have seen, i beleive he would cast caution on using a friction hitch with any device above it that could fail (knot tending on fast descent!) let alone attatching them together. i'm no expert, jsut have groan to like ya, and don't like messy puddles of mush!

i have been playing with SRT lightly; and have conjured up a strategy that i ahve not seen mentioned. I'll set my running bowline up to high support with the rigging line on the loop. Then they hold or set the rigging line outta da way for ascent, i reach my target that is lower than my TIP, sit on top of target, lanyard in, then use my rigging line to pull the bowline ring down to me, tie in, clip rigging line to belt and go to work. In this way i can maintain a high TIP, with an SRT arrival; changing over to DdRT; without ascending to the TIP for changeover. Just a thought to share.

After popping my hip out of the socket a while back, i at times have found myself depending more on upper rather than lower strength. But, then again, getting up there isn't the whole game; a lot depends on what and how well and safely you can do once you arrive! There are painters, welders, builders etc. that painstakingly initiate with proper prep and setup, to in the longrun turn out better quality work; irregardless of a few extra minutes here and there; especially in prep or setup. Now, i might get outdone by someone going up after 1 hanger, but rigging out 10 loads safely, that can be a diffrent story, especially if they have to make more cuts etc., and even then, with less control sometimes!

edit, oops looks like Tom swooped in while i was writing!!

 

[treeman82]

Tom, do you think that the upper mar bar would be a good handled ascender to use as far as wrist positioning goes? Back it up with a Gibbs ascender? I am most likely going to pick up some form of handled ascender this week because I cannot ascend SRT with just the pantin.

 

[t6140p]

srt advancement

Wow, the guy's you work for trim tree's useing spikes. Are there certified arborists involved here, or do you work for fly by nighters? I am a 15 year climbing veteren and NOBODY I know uses spikes while pruning a tree. I admire you for not following what the other guy does. If you care about the tree's that you care for, you may want to consider finding a new job. Maybe with someone who is not (what I would term) a hack...
Spikes are for removals and removals only!!!

T

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i still am laughed at around here a when i bring up no spikes, in fact thie city crews are the only ones i see climbing w/o on trims.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

82,

I think that Greg Liu's Easy Bars are a little better choice than Paul Sisson's Mar Bars. Less expensive and more compact.
their function is very close though.

I quit using a Gibbs because I didn't like the way it jiggled up the rope. The Microcender or the Rocker from either ISC or Yates is my preference for a lower. A Gibb's is still a good choice. I'm just splitting hairs really.

Storms overnight here in Baton Rouge. Up and out at 6 am with Ted Harbourt to do a crane job. Boulevard tree with no street-sdie roots. Duh...why did the tree tip over ?

Have a Happy New Year Everyone!

Tom

 

[Dan Flinn]

I'm always interested in the SRT threads. I especially like the idea of tieing a line to the running bowline to retrieve the climbing line.

As always, I've learned something different - using a running bowline up to the limb for the ascent. I tie off at the base of the tree. This works well for me because I don't have to isolate my line.

this brings up a question whose answer my feeble mind might not be able to understand:

Does running a bowline up to the limb put more force on the limb than a line that is over the limb and tied off at the base?

Tom, I would like some clarification. If I use a handled ascender for the top, would I use the rocker at my waist tie in point? and then use something like a pantin to "foot lock" with?

Thanks in advance for your responses.
Dan

 

[Ghivelder]

Running a bowline up to the limb will put roughly half the force on the limb than a line that is tied off at the base. On the other hand, with a line tied at the base you have the lower limbs as a back-up in case of a unpredictable failure.
The pantin is not the only alternative. You cal also tie a long loop to the upper ascender to put your foot on.

Sergio

http://www.tree-climbing.com

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Dan,

One part of my SRT protocol is to backup my ascenders. Denny Moorhouse calls it the "Braces and Belt" approach. [Braces are another name for suspenders] Any two means of attachment will work. i have personal preferences.

The Rocker goes on my saddle.

If you'd like a copy of the SRT article I wrote, drop my an email off the forum. I'll send the article when I get back to the Cities. I'm on an extended working vacation right now.

Tom

 

[treeman82]

Dan, I have the article on my comp here somewhere that Tom sent to me a couple weeks ago. If it's ok with you Tom I can send it to him.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think that running a line through a pulley on an upper support, then to the base of the tree will put a ~2x load on the support when both legs of the line are within ~30deg. of each other.

If you widen that angle it grows to be less load. And if you place the line over the support (rather than hanging it on a pulley underneath) you will get ~2x load - (the friction of going over the support and under it). Whereby, you can whittle that load factor down to ~1x Load, with friction and angle deflection, by watching what you are doing; before opting to share the load accros supports.

Not being picky, just seeking, sharing understanding (hopefully).

 

[Frans]

I have always run my rigging with plenty of overkill in hardware and smaller pieces.
However now that I am ascending more often with a single line this topic all of a sudden became more important to me.
Frans

 

[Dan Flinn]

Hey guys,

Thanks you so much for all the information!

I see now, how running the bowline up cuts the force (roughly) in half that of a line over a limb and tie at the base. I'll be honest, I thought it was reverse, but the drawing cleared it all up!

I remember Tom's article, but I'd like a copy for myself for reference.

Dan

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I sure hope that the SRT climbers don't get so hung up on the load increase of the access line on the crotch. Setting the access line in a choked conficuration really negates one of the best aspects of the SRT system that's in the article. Being able to rescue a climber offsets any loading concerns.

With the monthly thread [sarcasm ] about why climbers choose ropes based solely on thier breaking strength shifts the focus away from the biggest unknown safety factor that we live with: the tree. Depending on the concerns, safety factors should be between 5:1 and 10:1. That applies to branch unions too.

If a climber sets a rope in a union, then thinks that the limb is too small for an SRT setup and decides to choke the access line, they just started down a really slippery slope in the decision making process. The limbs should always be the strongest part of the system.

Tom

 

[treeclimber165]

That's a good point, Tom. But when I buy a rope based on it's strength rating, it is for consideration of it's second life as a handline after being replaced as a lifeline. I also like to work within certain standard perameters and like knowing that I will NEVER have to consider rope rating as long as I stay within acceptable perameters. I never have to think about my lifeline rope rating once purchased. I like having that confidence in ALL my life support gear. The only unknown (sort of) is the tree strength.

I'm looking forward to a continuing growth in SRT use and development of better methods for different objectives. It's guys like you who push the envelope on newer and safer methods who refine the process down to where people like me can use them.

Tom- Did you see the Live Oak pictures in the first two posts on the 'spice' thread?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

My point kinda was that you can have a retreivable (non-choked) support and a still have a low support load with the same high friction/ shared support strategies that work for minimizing rigging support loads.

In the 3rd drawing, you can lower someone (with friction allready installed, helping to control the 'load'), yet still have a low anchor load. All it takes is reducing the load on the control leg (with friction) pulling on the support in excess of the load, and/or reducing the amount of pull in the control leg that pulls down by slanting it. This gives 2 load reduction options, the former reduces the line tension and thereby the downward pull it poses on the support, the latter opens the option up to only have a percentage of the existing line tension on the control leg pulling down, by slanting it betwixt supports. The whole key is the pull of the control leg in these simple examples, until the slant between supports goes high enough to start actually lifting a percentage of the load's pull of the 'primary' support.

Walking that edge of the envelope is where the growth is, and also the most understanding; as you tune to screeching perfection, and constantly test the interaction of the componenets; polishing each one up; getting to know it even deeper and more simply as you become more conversive with it's elements. Thanx Tom for that leading edge effort and thought.

i try to downgrade my lines to rigging too, maintaining the newest as a lifeline; if only for that deep message, constant reflection and exercise of actively putting that as the highest priority even in this way; especially to be taught and revered that way to newbies to start. i try to buy lines (only colored for quick id)at 7k+, with 10:1 safety factor that gives me about 700-850 per leg of line on 1/2", i find what i ~300# as a fair start, so find any in that range. i like rotating lines down and out, usage wise; maintaining fresh lines with more easily remembered histories as i wear, dog and downgrade the oldest/most worn to constantly maintian these constraints.

 

[budroe69moni]

this may sound like a stupid question
but how do you get your rope down
after you've used a running bowline?????
budroe

 

[treeclimber165]

Spencer,
I don't work the whole tree on SRT, I'm only using SRT for entering the tree. Once I get up to the top, I untie the running bowline and tie into my saddle so I can work the tree using the traditional method.
Maybe one day when I buy a LockJack or something, I'll try working the whole tree using SRT start to finish.