Put the Top Down, Went for a Ride

[Fireaxman]

Anybody got some good advice on topping leaners?

Topped a Loblolly at about 70 feet this week. The tree had a "Recurve" in it that put me on the high side of a 10 degree lean when I made the cut. When the top came off the lost weight plus the normal kickback from the top threw me up and out enough to kick my spurs out. I was expecting a ride, but got a little more than I expected.

I was carefully lanyarded in and also tied in to an adjustable false crotch below the lanyard (Thanks Tom); saw was shut down when the top started over, so no damage done; but its pretty embarassing to be kicked out of the tree like that. Tree was only about 6" diameter where I made the cut, so not enough diameter to bore in and leave a trip on the back side. Front cut was slightly more open than conventional and about a third of the way through.

 

[DeanBrown3D]

So did you end up dangling by the saddle or what? Sounds like quite a scare!

 

[Ekka]

Pines can be a whippy bugger.

Never notch them at 45 degrees though, around 70 is good when you're in that whippy thin crap.

Was the top lowered or just belted out?

Was there a pull rope on it?

Also, as it was on a lean it most likely started to go early and you may not have come up and made a thin hinge leaving more wood to be broken. Sometimes you gotta have a fast saw and keep cutting up to that hinge thickness.

 

[coydog]

I suspect the open face increased the kickback, as it allows the top to be attached longer therefore it transmits maximum push and pull on the stem as it falls, add to that the fact that it was a leaner, so when the top broke free it was already FULLY commited to its downward fall pulling the spar and you along with it and then snapping back like a spring. pines are also very fibrous and the holding wood will bend and stay attached until forced to break. a narrower face will cause the top to break earlier in its swing and "jump" forward off the spar as well as giving you a gentler ride. Was the top pointed at the ground when it fell? How did it land on the ground? experimenting with your facecuts will allow you to not only avoid a bad ride but control where and how the top hits the ground.

 

[coydog]

Never notch them at 45 degrees though, around 70 is good when you're in that whippy thin crap.

wouldn't that depend?

 

[Fireaxman]

Pines can be a whippy bugger.

Never notch them at 45 degrees though, around 70 is good when you're in that whippy thin crap.

Was the top lowered or just belted out?

Was there a pull rope on it?

Also, as it was on a lean it most likely started to go early and you may not have come up and made a thin hinge leaving more wood to be broken. Sometimes you gotta have a fast saw and keep cutting up to that hinge thickness.

Belted out, not lowered. No pull rope, just let it fall. Ooops! Cut slow, thinking about getting the 200t shut down and holding on when it started over. Yep. Started over early, broke a pretty beefy hinge for such small wood.

70 degree notch? That's what I'm confused on. Wide open? And how deep?

 

[Fireaxman]

I suspect the open face increased the kickback, as it allows the top to be attached longer therefore it transmits maximum push and pull on the stem as it falls, add to that the fact that it was a leaner, so when the top broke free it was already FULLY commited to its downward fall pulling the spar and you along with it and then snapping back like a spring. pines are also very fibrous and the holding wood will bend and stay attached until forced to break. a narrower face will cause the top to break earlier in its swing and "jump" forward off the spar as well as giving you a gentler ride. Was the top pointed at the ground when it fell? How did it land on the ground? experimenting with your facecuts will allow you to not only avoid a bad ride but control where and how the top hits the ground.

I think the top was slightly before 90 degrees when it broke free. No clue how it hit the ground, buddy I was just trying to hold on. I'm looking forward to further "experimenting" with facecuts, but I would sincerely like to get a little benefit from someone with more experience before my next experiment.

The facecut seems critical. Ekka's 70 degree suggestion sounds more "Open". Sounded like Clearance was suggesting more "Closed" in a post about a month ago, and sounds like coydog suggests more "Closed". Absolutely no doubt about any of your experience or qualifications, just trying to clear up my understanding. Please, tell me more.

Leaner. More Open or more Closed than the 45 degree "Conventional"? Deeper, or more shallow than the "Conventional" 1/3?
How about a Humbolt? I think it might be easier to cut, but does it risk a butt down slide off the spar that could catch me with some laterals?

 

[Fireaxman]

So did you end up dangling by the saddle or what? Sounds like quite a scare!

Well, yes, hanging by the saddle. ... but it is a very good saddle, and it had me by both the side D's (lanyard) and the sliding D's (false crotch and DdRT). Safe saw was my biggest worry. Kind of fun actually, nice thrill. But I sure would like to know more about it. Like thrills. Just dont like surprises.

 

[Treeman67]

Anybody got some good advice on topping leaners?

Topped a Loblolly at about 70 feet this week. The tree had a "Recurve" in it that put me on the high side of a 10 degree lean when I made the cut. When the top came off the lost weight plus the normal kickback from the top threw me up and out enough to kick my spurs out. I was expecting a ride, but got a little more than I expected.

I was carefully lanyarded in and also tied in to an adjustable false crotch below the lanyard (Thanks Tom); saw was shut down when the top started over, so no damage done; but its pretty embarassing to be kicked out of the tree like that. Tree was only about 6" diameter where I made the cut, so not enough diameter to bore in and leave a trip on the back side. Front cut was slightly more open than conventional and about a third of the way through.

hell ya, you going to have free ride if you topped 70 feet topped,especially if it leaner too.. you needed have boom truck to do the job for you if it accessable. 6" diameter?? that nerves whacking..lol

Treeman67

 

[Fireaxman]

Do not have a boom truck. Cannot afford a boom truck. Trying to head off an IPS beetle infestation on 12 acres of loblollies (part of my retirement savings). Next tree in line has a similar lean and two closed pitch tubes visible from the ground (probably Black Turpintine Beetles, IPS usually start at the top. Top looks clean.)

If the advice is "Get used to it"; I'll get used to it. But if you can give me some advice on how to mitigate the problem, please do.

 

[clearance]

I top every tree I climb now, have topped and then removed more trees than I can remember, so I feel qualified to talk about this. I have cut off 40' tops from leaners before and the only time I ever went for a ride was then my coworkers yarded on the rope I had in hemlock top like they were pulling a ------ off thier old ladies just for a laugh. I cut leaners tops off just like how I fall leaner trees on the ground. Basically I want to remove as much wood as I can myself, I don't want the tree to break lots of holding wood, that loads it up. I make the undercut depending on how I want the top to land, flat=shallow. I cut sidewood out of the backcut, kind of like making a triangle with the holding wood as the base, if you where looking down on it. After that I cut into the backcut , revving my deadly sharp, full saw up first and not stopping as it moves. Humbolds mean it will not ever come back, sliding off the stump that is. On a tree that small I would wrap my lanyard as well, that really stabilizes you, and of course, stick your spurs in good. Slow is bad, dull saws are bad, empty saws are terrible. If it ever starts to chair, keep cutting, in any case always stand to one side of where it could chair. Hope this helps.

 

[Ekka]

Fireaxman

Tis true to what many say, Clearance also noted that fast and up to that hinge.

Yes angles of notches depending on ht determine how the head lands.

However, remember one absolutely critical fact. when the head is over at 45 degrees to the ground it is exerting MAXIMUM rearward push against the trunk. If this is also the point where the face closes and the hingewood has to break then you have just amplified the ride.

Having a wider notch will allow the head more momentum to break the hingwood, more time for you to keep cutting, and the spar (trunk) will progress toward a forward movement straightening up from that head pushing it back. The weight of the head is now downward not horizontal.

Have a look at 2 videos I'm about to post.

It's a guy taking a huge head out of a pine and gets chucked bad, worth a look. But in the video it was roped down.

I'll call it Bad Ride on Pine Topping

 

[arboralliance]

Try this Fireaxeman...

Fireaxman, try tying out a rope below your feet and back to another tree, get your groundy to slight pre-tension this rope to another tree on the ground or an solid object with a truckies hitch so the top you're in will stay tensioned when you scarf it out via the pre-tension in the rope tied out below your feet preventing all or most whip/ride...:sword:

You tie it back away from the direction you are felling. I know this is stating the obvious sorry but would hate to see you scarf out the head on this rope or side tie it to no effect...

Be very warry of any boring insect damage in the base also, this sounds suspect and very dangerous...

I am also assuming you had a pull rope on that head in case of wind change etc, etc?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

The bracing works well; but part of the force incurred is a rearward push into bracing line; slackening it's support.

Personally, i try to set up my face, then remove more wood to set my back cut up so the saw can come flying thru with less fiber to cut. This is so i can try to cut thru hinge as top is throwing away from me at an angle; before so much push/pull forces are placed on spar.

To me it is a timing thing; kinda dancing with the feel of forces; as it wants to throw away from me; letting it fly across and away. Sometime before it starts pushing back into spar i'm on, before it starts pulling me forward on spar, and before slamming closed.

i've seen a lot of guys 'cowboy' it and try to amplify and exaggerate the forces; to play tough guy; so did opposite. Also, after release; i'd notice how they would like try to keep the 'pony' bucking wild by placing body timing as neutral or even throwing weight with motion. So, i'd throw body opposite direction spar was moving (but still were i could hang on good); to use weight and it's impact to counter/ snub out the spar forces.

A lot of this is timing and feel; and counter intuitive to normal safety and operating practices. i'd usually say never cut thru hinge, let it work to buffer force, and be anti-kickback/slideback of butt end. But, that always places the forces of the moving top into the stump/spar; just in felling the release forces, have a leveraged distance to amplify through from backcut to ground, that they don't have in felling. So, just as it is committed to throwing itself away from me in topping; i release it cleanly, so hinge and face don't fight it. And try to get some kind of 'ninja'/ clean release; using forces to stand on my side, rather than against me.

But all ways tie in twice, and be prepared for anything!

Orrrrrrrrrrrr something like that.

 

[Mike Cantolina]

There's some good comments above. If you want to be sure of little to no ride then yes make your notch deeper. 45 or greater with a deep notch. After starting your back cut (once you know the top is going the right direction and well away from you) cut the hinge clear off. It's important to make sure there are no obstacles for thet op to brush on the way over before you do this

Your notch closing with the hing still attached is what pulls the spar forward. (Actually on a small top the notch doesn't have to close, just the resistance of the hinge will pull spar over. In this case, cutting faster is important.)

The angle the top is at when you release the hinge determines how the top lands.




Mike

 

[woodchux]

In my experience , I get the least bucking by cutting a wide 70* very shallow notch maybe 1/5 to 1/4

 

[rebelman]

I do lot's of loblollies. Each situation is different of course, and you're getting great advice and discussion. For me the humbolt works most times to lessen the ride. Fifty to seventy degree. Now that is strictly for controlling the ride, how the top hits and what it hits are other consideratoins.

 

[arboralliance]

Spearing the head...

Could be an option if only smaller diameter like you mentioned to spear the head down after allowing it to pivot at least 5 degree or so forward onto the hinge then follow through having made a very wide face cut , in the line of the bottom cut of the face and in turn spearing the head down but takes a lot of practice and can be deadly if not done right but certainly an option for confined space whippy heads n poles, more rigging can be used to hold it just above the ground once it heads south...Have done thousands like this as a utlity climber in close proximity not to mention other areas...Practice spear cutting branches and small saplings...

 

[clearance]

Why go for a ride, read my earlier post. Spear cutting, we call it fast cutting, I like it, takes a bit of practice to get right.

 

[Fireaxman]

... Be very warry of any boring insect damage in the base also, this sounds suspect and very dangerous...

The IPS, Pine Bark, and Black Turpentine Beetles are cambium destroying insects only. They do not enter the sapwood. As long as I get on them quick, while the bark is still tight and before the sawyer beetles get started, the wood is strong and safe.

I am also assuming you had a pull rope on that head in case of wind change etc, etc?

I did not have a pull rope on this one, only because it had so much lean it was fully committed before I ever started a saw. And I WISH I had a breeze, in this 95 degree heat and 95% relative hunidity. But thanks for the caution; on every other top I have ever done I used the pull rope.

Only once did I let a groundie pull on it TOO hard, TOO soon, that lesson was pretty obvious. Yes, this is the second time I have been kicked out of the tree.

The tie back suggestions sounds excellent. Can do. In fact, I can get a pretty serious bind on it with the Griphoist, enough that any kickbak from the top (as Spidey warned me) would be insignificant. Any danger of too much pull? That would also streighten up the spar for me, and give my spurs a better grip, and bring the COG of the top back to a less drastic overbalence.

I'm sure gonna do the "Triangle Cut", Clearance. Excellent suggestion.

Special thanks for the film, Ekka; thankfully my ride was not That Bad. Makes me feel a little less ignorant though, and not so much like the Lone Ranger.

I'm with you on small tops, TreeCo. Until I get the hang of this I'm not taking off anything I can't fight off. Seems like I saw that advice in a previous post somewhere. Might have been one of yours. Ekka's film is a good (and very timely) reminder of how much can go wrong.

Much, Much Thanks, Men. Pretty clear where I made my major mistakes. I'm determined to get this right. By sharing your knowledge you save me many bruises and probably worse.