Questions on insulating and heating a pole building

[s13rymos]

Hey guys.. Im gonna be building a 30x40 pole building on my property soon and i was wondering what is the best way to insulate it.. I was thinking something along the lines of spray on insulation or trying to fit foam sheets in somehow.. also would a OWB be sufficient enough to heat both this and my house or would i need a separate heat system for my shop.. any help would be great thanks..

 

[Slick]

An OWB will surely heat that and a house, mine does most of 40x70 building and my house, just size it properly. Insulation for a pole building comes in many varieties...how are you finishing the inside? Alot of guys use the blanket insulation that goes on as you apply the metal walls of the building, not the best insulation but it's something, probably R4-6 or something like that...sheet foam will get you similiar results depending on how thick you go. If your finishing the inside just build walls between the "poles" of the building and use batt insulation between them.
Mine has the blanket which isn't the greatest but it's something, I'm working my way around with framed walls and R13 in them and it's a huge improvement.

 

[modn]

Typical extruded foam is r-5 per inch of material. I did this in my pole barn and it works great. Works pretty well on the ceiling also.

 

[Taxmantoo]

If I were to do it from scratch, and didn't want to pay thousands for sprayed-on foam, I'd put 2" foam sheet (vertically) around the perimeter underground, put hydronic heat loops under the concrete floor and fill the walls with cellulose. Even if I didn't have an OWB but might get one someday, I'd insulate the floor and put the pipes in it for hot water heat.

 

[s13rymos]

Thanks for the responses guys.. I dont know if im gonna finish the inside yet.. if i do it wont be for awhile... I might just do the sheets of foam like u guys said and see about putting pipes in the floor for radiant heat off the floor.. i think that should work.. Ill add that i dont have a OWB right now.. we had a taylor a long time ago when i was a kid but the water jacket rusted out so we got rid of it.. im in the market for another one since the design of them has been greatly improved..

 

[whiting-5]

mine is 55x88 feet i had the insulation guys in my building during the day all areas that you could see light .got spray in. corners, eves pretty much everywhere then went back with 6 inch thick pole barn insulation.it is tight we use it for live music and it even sounds good!

 

[pwl]

Check out www.garagejournal.com. Tons of info and many good people there.

 

[Circle B MN]

In my 30x40, I have foam panels between the battens on the walls, and then covered that with 3/8 CDX to protect it and give me something to hang tools and such on. I have yet to insulate the ceiling, but intend to have it sprayed rather than mess with setting in the lumber needed to hang plywood. My shop has it's own wood stove and even on the coldest days it stays as nice as you would expect a shop to be. I'm working out there, not living in it...

 

[trialanderror]

we had our quonset building insulated, we only did 1 inch of sprayfoam. it's all steel. the guy doing it said 1" will take care of 85% of the battle...it wasn't bad to heat, i put a 8ft attic to naturally act as a heat insulator, and keep the heat lower to the floor.

it's a 50x100 with 22ft tall on center... floor still needs to be poured, i plan on doing pex in the slab. a job for next summer.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Spray on insulation is pretty popular here for sheds. It's good stuff, and remarkably tough for what it is. Ice shack technology up on Lake of the Woods for some of the resorts consists of build a floor, frame the sides, panel the inside, put a roof on it, then spray foam the outside and paint over it. I've spent a couple days in one at well below zero, and it stayed plenty toasty.

I'd definitely look into it if you're insulating the whole thing and not planning on finishing it. For a finished shop area, I would probably just stick to regular batt insulation.

 

[dingeryote]

A couple years back when we built our 30x60, spray insulation was not as cost effective as plain old bat insulation and chip board, so we went that route in the seperate shop area of the barn. Ceiling is 20' so we insulated the overhead and partitioned it off as well from the rest of the barn.

Been heating it with a salamander for now. I'm waiting to find a good electric wall mount heater for a good price. I just need to knock the chill down while I'm in the shop working and don't want to leave a burning stove going.
No Boiler here... I don't care for them, but see where they would be great for the application. Toasty warm concrete would be great to work on come winter!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[nrouwhorst]

Insulating Pole Barn

Closed cell polyurethane foam sprayed in a pole barn is your BEST option. The foam will bond your building together, its amazing how much structural integrity it will add to your pole barn. To keep the price relatively inexpensive have the outside walls sprayed with 2" of foam and then blow 15" of fiberglass or cellouse in the attic space, with baffles for ventilation. I've sprayed at least 50 pole barns in the past 7 years and everyone of my customer's can't believe how well the foam works. The foam stops air infiltration which pushes your conditioned air out. Pole barns have many areas were air can get in, small gaps in the sheeting ect. When you have air infiltration with fiberglass the dry trapped air in the fiberglass gets disturbed and your r-values plummet. Because the foam is solid and cellular the trapped air inside the foam isn't effected by outside conditions i.e. cold temperature, wind, or moisture. Not to mention, metal is a very good conductor and is a likely place for condensation. Closed cell polyurethane will stop all moisture penetration and condensation. If you want to do more research on your own check out http://www.monolithic.com/stories/foam-chapter-04 , and http://www.sprayfoam.com/spps/ahpg.cfm?spgid=1

 

[STANG302]

Closed cell polyurethane foam sprayed in a pole barn is your BEST option. The foam will bond your building together, its amazing how much structural integrity it will add to your pole barn. To keep the price relatively inexpensive have the outside walls sprayed with 2" of foam and then blow 15" of fiberglass or cellouse in the attic space, with baffles for ventilation. I've sprayed at least 50 pole barns in the past 7 years and everyone of my customer's can't believe how well the foam works. The foam stops air infiltration which pushes your conditioned air out. Pole barns have many areas were air can get in, small gaps in the sheeting ect. When you have air infiltration with fiberglass the dry trapped air in the fiberglass gets disturbed and your r-values plummet. Because the foam is solid and cellular the trapped air inside the foam isn't effected by outside conditions i.e. cold temperature, wind, or moisture. Not to mention, metal is a very good conductor and is a likely place for condensation. Closed cell polyurethane will stop all moisture penetration and condensation. If you want to do more research on your own check out http://www.monolithic.com/stories/foam-chapter-04 , and http://www.sprayfoam.com/spps/ahpg.cfm?spgid=1

Excellent! I will be building a 40x60/80, have not made up my mind yet, next summer. It will be split into living quarters and a shop/storage area for my party rental biz. And finding information on how people have acomplished this in the past is slim to none. That is the best information I've seen on insulating, thanks!

I will have a boiler and radiant heat trough out. If I put 2" of spray in foam on the walls. Would you recomend a second layer of bat in the outside walls for living quarters?

The shop I'm not worried about. There the readiant heat and light foam on the walls should keep it comfortable.

 

[Slick]

Anyone know if foam can be sprayed over the blanket foam put on pole buildings? I wouldn't mind doing my ceiling but it already has the blanket...

 

[STANG302]

we had our quonset building insulated, we only did 1 inch of sprayfoam. it's all steel. the guy doing it said 1" will take care of 85% of the battle...it wasn't bad to heat, i put a 8ft attic to naturally act as a heat insulator, and keep the heat lower to the floor.

it's a 50x100 with 22ft tall on center... floor still needs to be poured, i plan on doing pex in the slab. a job for next summer.

Sorry a little off topic. How do you like your steel quonset? Were did you get yours from? And how much did it run you?

I've looked at steelmaster and there large buildings realy are not that cost efective over stick built pole buildings. And the fact that I could not easily figure out an easy way to insulate I looked elsewere.

Now again the sprayed foam is intreging. If it sticks to the steal and seals all the seams and does not detiriourate over time and start falling off. This is making steal quonsit type buildings a viable option again. I'll have to continue some research on this.

 

[Taxmantoo]

For everybody who is thinking of spraying foam and NOT putting wallboard over it (like the guys spraying ceilings), you need to read this:

http://www.monolithic.com/stories/foam-chapter-05

 

[trialanderror]

Sorry a little off topic. How do you like your steel quonset? Were did you get yours from? And how much did it run you?

I've looked at steelmaster and there large buildings realy are not that cost efective over stick built pole buildings. And the fact that I could not easily figure out an easy way to insulate I looked elsewere.

Now again the sprayed foam is intreging. If it sticks to the steal and seals all the seams and does not detiriourate over time and start falling off. This is making steal quonsit type buildings a viable option again. I'll have to continue some research on this.

it's not off topic, it's insulation related

i love it, totally bad ass. Dad's boss had him do a jobsite, and he saw the building, and asked the owner was the story was, said you can have it if you move it, if it doesn't move, it's getting plowed down. So, we moved it. A job it was, but man, it was worth every effort, 2 weeks and gas money. The panels are kinda curved, ribbed you could say. It was galvanized, and we ended up heating every nut with a torch and zapping apart with a cordless drill, naturally that destroyed the gal coating, so we sand blasted the essential overlapping areas, sealed with paint (can't remember the name, have to dig up some paperwork) and quick put it up. after it was up, finished sand blasting and coating. We have our own sand and sandblaster. 472 caddy with a 4 speed running 2 separate 2 stage compressors, also turning a supercharger that forces air in the intakes, and they're serious compressors, caddy has all it can do to run them in granny gear......pumping into 4x500 gal tanks.

Friend of a friend gave us a deal, ended up costing $7000 to spray, so we did only 1". It was overwhelming how much 1" accomplished. It was so effective, we're not concrned about adding more.

It had a 12" I beam full lenght for the far top center for support, i used that for an attic hoist, then the attic itself sits on top of I beams, so i have a 35ton hoist that floats full width and lenght of the building. Next up is to put a pit in the floor. Off topic that was.

We were told the building was 50 years old (Not sure how true that holds), but, the steel was in excellent condition, starting to fad and surface rust, but some blasting and painting, and it's to last quite a while in my time. I'm very very satisfied with it.

Basically i was out the time to move it clean it and assemble it, gas money to move it and blast it, and paint it.

If i came across another one, i'd be on it quicker then stink on ####.

 

[STANG302]

Was there any isues with the poly bonding to the steel?

Well thanks, I think you just killed my idea of a pole building. And I have seen these quonsits on craigs list for sail cheap! I may have to keep my eye open or look at one new.

 

[trialanderror]

nope, not a problem. made sure it was super clean, naturally sandblasting does that with zero effort. Then i spray painted it. It was literally a blast to do it drunk
Needs to be primed.

http://www.sprayfoam.org/uploads/pages/4480/AY%20112.pdf

that should get you started if any more questions.

 

[Steve NW WI]

We were told the building was 50 years old (Not sure how true that holds), but, the steel was in excellent condition, starting to fad and surface rust, but some blasting and painting, and it's to last quite a while in my time. I'm very very satisfied with it.

50 sounds about right. Quonsets were pretty much an invention of WWII, and were popular for a while after the war, until pole sheds came onto the scene. There's many an old quonset around, and most still look fairly good for their age.