Racing Gas in my 357xp

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The truth is, octane doesn't produce any power, it's just something that regulates detonation. How much octane is needed depends on a lot of factors, but compression and engine type are two of them. 2 Cycle engines tend to have higher compression than 4 strokes, but not always.

I'll tell you what is a waste is running AV gas in a saw or 2 cycle motorcycle. These engines rev way higher than any airplane and AV gas just isn't formulated for high RPM's. Running AV gas at 10k+ RPM will cost you some power for sure. How much of a loss is subjective. Some people probably wouldn't even notice it.

Here's what I suggest:

  1. Race Gas: Not all race gas is the same. If you have access to race gas I would suggest you call the mfg and ask them what they would recommend for a chainsaw. I use VP Racing Fuels C12 in my saws. This gas is an excellent fuel that's perfectly blended for small CC, hi RPM 2 cycle engines. I also only run Stihl Ultra for my mix. C12 is great because it has a little bit of lead in it which is really good for lubrication. AV gas has lead in it too, but a lot more than C12.
  2. 50 Fuel: These people make a premixed gas specifically for chainsaws and small 2 cycle motors. I tested some of their gas and I have to tell you, I think it was the best out of all the fuels I tested. If you can get it, it's well worth it. You'll be able to get it from their website at www.50fuels.com
  3. Pump Gas: Ya know, sometimes ya just have to run it. Try to stay away from pump gas that has ethanol in it. Ethanol=BAD. It's abrasive, it sucks in water out of the air, and it causes your gas to go bad very quickly, gumming up everything it touches. Pump gas is the lowest quality fuel a refinery makes and shouldn't even be used in your car. If you have to use pump gas, don't by the cheap stuff. Get a quality mfg and buy their mid to hi grades. Premium isn't necessary btw. Anything over 89 octane is fine.

Quit thinking octane though. It's the blend that matters, not the octane. If you do end up with a higher octane fuel, you'll probably have to adjust the carb a little bit and possibly the timing. Bring it to the shop if you're not comfortable tinkering with those settings. (Or ask here. Somebody will point you in the right direction.)


I like your thinking, minus the ethonol part, and pump gas being bad, the idea that higher octain fuels burn cooler being a good reason to use them is nonsense, mixture and O2 content of the fuel have FAR more drastic of an effect on temp than octain, and the lower octain fuel is not burning hotter, but faster, and therefore energy is being converted into heat rather than downward movement of the piston, taking power (torque) with it, without timming adjustments a higher octane fuel will lose power.

Race gas is made for a reason, a average passenger car has about a 8:1 compression ratio, and a drag car has upward of 12+:1 that added compression ratio puts a greater stress on the fuel to ignite due to compression, like a diesel, before TDC (knocking) to combat this you need a higher octain fuel that will resist detonation, but you also have to drasticly change not only the base timming but the advance curve and ammount, because the fuel burns slower the spark has to occur earlier in the cycle, so that you reach peak combustion pressure at or slighly behind TDC.

On a small 2 stroke engine, like a saw, ignition timming is key to making power, if your fuel is only 3/4 burned when the piston moves past the point of covering the exhaust port, than you have lost potential energy to heat leaving the exhaust unburnt. without advancing the timming a higher octaine fuel is going to slow the burn down to that point.



sorry for the rambling on.........edited for calrity...
 
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Unless I read you wrong you say high octane burns faster? Thats the opposite of what I have read. And I keep hearing that AV gas "was not meant for high rpm engines". What exactly can anyone explain about this?
I dont buy AV gas mainly for the octane but for the fact I am getting quality fuel with no ethanol, which stores for months at a time, and which is readily available (to me) and not much more that premium pump gas, the octane is just a bonus. Also I believe the lead doesnt hurt either. I have NEVER read anyone saying AV gas ruined their saw/bike or made it run poorly. Tuning is another thing, it tends to run richer and rich running engines last longer than lean ones, although depending on how much power may be lost to a minute degree? Given the choice between pump or 100LL for almost the same money, its an easy choice for me.
 
no lower octane fuels burn faster, and the speed at wich they burn is what causes the excess heat, however based on stock timming, 110ll av gas will cost you power. there is no doubt it will, just a fact. you can do whatever you want, i dont believe alcohol will hurt anything as long as the fuel hasnt been exposed to moisture, and i only buy 2 gallons of fuel at a time, i drive past a gas station evrday so storage isnt an issue, might be different in your situation.
 
So you just use premium? What do you think about 50/50 mix of premium and AV gas? Maybe I'm just paranoid but I always think the gas stations are ripping us off on the octane thing, and the alcohol thing, I mean who checks and how would anyone know?
 
well, i have studied fuel and performance engines and such for a long time, I used to competitivly drag race, and it is my thoughts that octane rating is much less important in anything stock, and alcohol is nothing to be afraid of. run what the saw mfg suggests (spl?) i work in the fuel industry (propane) and our fuel is HEAVILY regulated and thuroghly tested. and I have to believe that gasoline is as well or better tested thatn our gas, alcohol is nothing new in gas, and the hype is overated, even 10% is nothing to concern me unless i have a fuel system that is sensitive to it, that said, moisture can collect in it, resulting IMO in more energy waisted in water vapor going out the exh. and displacing fuel to be burned in a given AF ratio.
 
So you just use premium? What do you think about 50/50 mix of premium and AV gas? Maybe I'm just paranoid but I always think the gas stations are ripping us off on the octane thing, and the alcohol thing, I mean who checks and how would anyone know?
Just remember, ethanol is flat out bad for a chainsaw, so the least you can use it, the better.

The drawback with AV gas is it's formulated for use in a high compression aircraft engine that will never see more than 3,000 RPM. AV gas just doesn't burn fast enough for an 11,000 RPM motor. Your power will be down and you'll have lots of unburnt fuel in the exhaust gas.

There's a huge amount of science that goes into fuel blending for different applications. I've interviewed a couple of chemists about it for an article I was going to do for the AS magazine, but that sorta fell apart.

Just remember this, ethanol is bad, bad, bad for chainsaws. The more you can keep it out of your saw the better. If you do have to use it, be sure to empty the tank and run the saw till it's dry if you're going to store it for more than a couple of weeks. Ethanol is really an enemy and I won't allow it in my saw for any reason. AV gas won't hurt your saw though, but 50Fuels gas or a race gas formulated for 2 cycle engines are the optimum.
 
really, why is it that ethanol is bad, you keep saying it but you have no reason...
 
really, why is it that ethanol is bad, you keep saying it but you have no reason...
Ethanol screws up all kinds of things when it's left for anything other than a short period of time. First, it's hydrophilic, meaning that it absorbs water. Buy a water content tester fro Bailey's and test the gas out of the pump. You'll have a heart attack.

Ethanol also wreaks havoc with the innards of the fuel lines and carburetor by gumming everything up. Look at your fuel filter when you break the saw out after winter and you'll see crap all over it. That's what ethanol does. It also swells the rubber if there's any in the fuel line or carb.

Trust me, ethanol is the last thing you want in your saw. Do a search here for Ethanol, there's hundreds of posts about it.
 
Just remember, ethanol is flat out bad for a chainsaw, so the least you can use it, the better.

The drawback with AV gas is it's formulated for use in a high compression aircraft engine that will never see more than 3,000 RPM. AV gas just doesn't burn fast enough for an 11,000 RPM motor. Your power will be down and you'll have lots of unburnt fuel in the exhaust gas.

There's a huge amount of science that goes into fuel blending for different applications. I've interviewed a couple of chemists about it for an article I was going to do for the AS magazine, but that sorta fell apart.

Just remember this, ethanol is bad, bad, bad for chainsaws. The more you can keep it out of your saw the better. If you do have to use it, be sure to empty the tank and run the saw till it's dry if you're going to store it for more than a couple of weeks. Ethanol is really an enemy and I won't allow it in my saw for any reason. AV gas won't hurt your saw though, but 50Fuels gas or a race gas formulated for 2 cycle engines are the optimum.


I disagree that 100ll AV is no good for high rpm motors. Chevrolet in fact recommends it for use in their high performance off road engines.

From the chevy power service manual: " Fuel-The best super premium available. Examples are sunoco 260, 100-130 octane aviation gas, union 76 racing gasoline. Aviation fuel and racing gasoline have carefully controlled vapor pressure to prevent vapor lock. Some pump fuels, particularly in northern climates, will cause vapor lock and lean mixtures........"
 
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50fuels is 1.5 gal is $22.50 + shipping. Does anyone have a price on the VT C-12? I agree that this stuff is the best for our machines....but damn!

RD
 
100LL AV gas is around $4 a gallon and the 112 stuff is $7 here. I keep them separate and then mix with fresh premium as needed right before use. Find a fuel dealer, many are at/near airports, if you buy from a motorcycle shop they will get you for $50 for a 5 gallon can or more...but at least you get a free can! :monkey:
 
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like i said, ethanol is not good IF YOU LET IT SIT, and it absorbs moisture, ethanol is not going to ruin your fuel system, 10%ehtanol is not going to deteriorate your fuel system. there is nothig wrong with it as long as it dosnt sit for a long time, if you read what a fuel companys website says, of coarse they will try and convince you to buy their fuel, it is not needed.
 
Just my 2 cents, in a nut shell. If you can afford the 50 fuel or c-12= best, av 100LL= better, pump gas 89 or better= good, pump gas cheapo= bad for the average Joe, meaning retuning, muffler mod.( No major mods ie timming, squish ect). I run the 100LL again for price, availability and storage. I'm not a full time cutter so storage is an issue for me. and again aaahhh the smell !!!!
 
Just my 2 cents, in a nut shell. If you can afford the 50 fuel or c-12= best, av 100LL= better, pump gas 89 or better= good, pump gas cheapo= bad for the average Joe, meaning retuning, muffler mod.( No major mods). I run the 100LL again for price, availability and storage. I'm not a full time cutter so storage is an issue for me. and again aaahhh the smell !!!!

Word.:agree2:
 
I had a problem with a 401Dolmar. The saw's compression was down to 60PSI. Upon examination the piston ring was seized inward even with the outside diameter of the piston. It would drop right down the bore. Also, the combustion chamber had a black sticky residue in it. The ring could not be pried out of its groove. I used penetrating oil and heat to the top of the piston to free it. Saw is running normal now.
Not many hours on this saw. I think I was on the second chain. I ran woodland pro syn. oil at 40;1 with 110octane racing gas that I purchased at a Marathon station. I have pictures on an original post but did not get a single reply. However, Tzed250, responded to a PM and seems to think the sticky residue came from the racing gas. Tzed250, believes it comes from all the additives in the gas. I am not going to use it anymore. The sticky stuff had to come from somewhere.
 
Another alternative is ToolFuel. It is a 93 octane, non-ethanol gas designed for small engines that sit for extended periods, such as fire apparatus.

It has an indefinite shelf life and when it evaporates, leaves no residue.

Check out their website for distributors.

The down side is it costs about $12/ gallon, but for my pre-mix usage/small engine usage per year, it will not cost much per month to run. If you are a high volume user, I wouldn't recommend it for cost-effectiveness. But then again, if you're a high volume user, the ethanol won't be sitting in your saw very long before it's consumed and refilled.

Bought a 5 gallon can of it and am ready to mix up my first batch for the saws.

Just thought it might work for some other users as an alternative to race or av-gas.

Tim
 
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