razor sharp chain

[redprospector]

when you sharpen a chain by hand there is always some slight diffrences in angles. the only way to stop this is grind them with a bech grinder but it is kinda hard to get a chain sharper than factory. cut faster than factory maybe sharper noopcorn:

Andy

 

[redprospector]

Thanks for the info guys, I'm looking forward to getting to spend some time with my square grinder... hopefully next month.

How's the grinder treating you?

Andy

 

[grandpatractor]

Andy

:agree2:

 

[wvlogger]

Andy

what i mean is that it is next to impossible (but still posible) to match your angles on lets say 30 some teeth on a 20" chain with a file. an electric bench mont grinder is not impossible becaude it is fixed.

 

[Crofter]

Yep there will be some variance on angles tooth to tooth with hand filing but as long as the cutter length is uniform and the file corner is properly in the tooth corner (square filed) that bit of variance is of no concern for a work chain that will be 20% or so faster than round filed. If you were doing a chain for a competion you could pay attention better and the differences tooth to tooth would be very little. You wont accomplish it though till you have spent fifty or a hundred hours and worn out quite a few files. It has to be a very badly square filed job to be as slow as a round filed chain.

 

[redprospector]

when you sharpen a chain by hand there is always some slight diffrences in angles. the only way to stop this is grind them with a bech grinder but it is kinda hard to get a chain sharper than factory. cut faster than factory maybe sharper noopcorn:

I'm really not trying to start an arguement here, but there are a lot of way's to make a chain sharper than factory.
"Sharpness" is dictated by the angle used on the cutting edge. If you use, let's say a 30* angle on the bottom of the top plate, and I use a 50* angle on the bottom of the top plate by nature my cutting edge will be sharper.
As far as the angles varying slightly, you're right. However, after spending several hundred hours filing work chain, and another few hundred hours filing race chain's the variance is so slight that it's hard to find with a good protractor.
Besides that, when filing a chain (either work or race) the goal is to make it cut faster. If in the end the chain cut's faster than the factory grind, wouldn't it be considered sharper? Maybe not quite as uniform, but definately sharper.

Andy

 

[wvlogger]

I'm really not trying to start an arguement here, but there are a lot of way's to make a chain sharper than factory.
"Sharpness" is dictated by the angle used on the cutting edge. If you use, let's say a 30* angle on the bottom of the top plate, and I use a 50* angle on the bottom of the top plate by nature my cutting edge will be sharper.
As far as the angles varying slightly, you're right. However, after spending several hundred hours filing work chain, and another few hundred hours filing race chain's the variance is so slight that it's hard to find with a good protractor.
Besides that, when filing a chain (either work or race) the goal is to make it cut faster. If in the end the chain cut's faster than the factory grind, wouldn't it be considered sharper? Maybe not quite as uniform, but definately sharper.

Andy

i am not anting to argue ether. i am just showing what i have found. i have no were near the sharpining time you do, nor the experience.

 

[Wild Knight]

There seems to be a lot of good advice on this thread, except there isn't a lot of good advice. Granted, maybe I just don't get it, but I dont read a lot of instruction on how to do what it is you guys are trying to say in the threads I have serached. For example, "hold file at this horizontal angle with this vertical angle, or push in this direction with this inward felt pressure". What is the basic theory on why you do what it is you advise (this angle with this raker shape, etc.). I know I am speaking somewhat abstractly, but I guess I need a little more instruction on the nuts and bolts (the what, why and how) of what you are speaking.

Please don't take my comments as brash or impudent.

Are there any good instructional threads, posts or websites for either returning a chain to factory sharp or better than factory sharp, or is this kinda the guarded secret of the pro's?

 

[Crofter]

There seems to be a lot of good advice on this thread, except there isn't a lot of good advice. Granted, maybe I just don't get it, but I dont read a lot of instruction on how to do what it is you guys are trying to say in the threads I have serached. For example, "hold file at this horizontal angle with this vertical angle, or push in this direction with this inward felt pressure". What is the basic theory on why you do what it is you advise (this angle with this raker shape, etc.). I know I am speaking somewhat abstractly, but I guess I need a little more instruction on the nuts and bolts (the what, why and how) of what you are speaking.

Please don't take my comments as brash or impudent.

Are there any good instructional threads, posts or websites for either returning a chain to factory sharp or better than factory sharp, or is this kinda the guarded secret of the pro's?

No big bunch of guarded secrets; just hundreds of separate details! I dont think you will find, in any one single published piece of work, all the theory and direct instruction for sharpening all the different types of chainsaw chain. If there were such a thing it would still take a lot of reading and practice before it all made sense to you (if you were brand new to the job).

I have seen chains that were reputed to be sharp, but you could tell from ten feet away by the reflected light from the cutting edges that they were not "razor sharp" There is one book that would be a first read for anyone truly interested in sharpening tools and cutting wood efficiently. Title "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" by Leonard Lee, of Lee Valley Tools.

 

[TraditionalTool]

They sure look like a nifty Idea. I am going to study this Foley Filer Machine I bought over ebay, and see how I can adapt chainsaw bar to it, and sharpen my chains with it. The file holder can be turned 360 degrees as well. The machine can be adjusted for 30 degree angles, and the file can be set at 10 degrees as well. It is desined for all types hand saws, and also can file circular saw blades as well.

I think you'll find that you will have a hard time adapting it. The ratchets used are for spacing the teeth at the proper TPI (Teeth Per Inch), but a chainsaw chain is spaced much wider.

Honestly, I make my own handsaws, and I have a bunch of Foley equipment but the only useful piece is the retoother. I do all of my setting and filing by hand. I think the Foley equipment was designed by Rube Goldberg, or his long lost cousin...

If you do figure out a way to use it, I'll be curious to see, but I don't think it will work. I plan to file my chains by hand also...as soon as I buy a saw that is...

Remember that Foley did make a chainsaw sharpening device that went on the grinder/sharpener machine they sold, it was called an all-in-one or something like that.

This is the type of saws I make, I mill the backs out of bronze, and turn the split-nuts out of bronze on an old South Bend lathe. This saw was made for a good friend I grew up with, he build cabinets for a living. It was made for him in memory of a good friend of ours that we grew up with that died earlier this year...My friend I made it for keeps it in his toolbox nowadays, using it when he installs.

(linky pic to gallery)



Regards,
Trad

 

[TraditionalTool]

i am not anting to argue ether. i am just showing what i have found. i have no were near the sharpining time you do, nor the experience.

Well, IME, machines don't do a good job at sharpening, because sharpening teeth is best done on a per tooth basis. Machines are set for exact angles, but in the real world exact angles don't work like you would think.

Exact angles look good on paper, but don't work too well in the real world. My $0.02...

The other point is that this is not rocket science, so just because a chain ain't perfectly aligned with the tooth, doesn't mean it won't cut well.

Some things are not learned in a book.

Regards,
Trad

 

[Crofter]

So will a chain or a saw cut just as well as a uniformly sharpened and set saw, or somewhat less well, than one which has been rendered a bit higgeldy piggledy in angles, lengths and widths and shapes of tooth?

I do agree that when a saw is so, you are pretty much committed to continuing by eye unless you strip away back to unify mechanically. That is no black eye on the merits of uniform sharpening though, IME!

 

[TraditionalTool]

So will a chain or a saw cut just as well as a uniformly sharpened and set saw, or somewhat less well, than one which has been rendered a bit higgeldy piggledy in angles, lengths and widths and shapes of tooth?

It can, but it all depends. I'd take a sharp saw over a dull saw any day of the week. If the uniform teeth are dull, you can have them. There are a lot of variables, IMO.

I do agree that when a saw is so, you are pretty much committed to continuing by eye unless you strip away back to unify mechanically. That is no black eye on the merits of uniform sharpening though, IME!

Well, there is all types of sharpening machines and/or attachments that use power. Nothing wrong with them either, but filing by hand is a skill that is useful, since if you are in the woods and only have a file, you can sharpen your chain...people who become dependent on mechanical devices will often feel naked without said device.

Handsaws are a bit different, since the teeth get jointed when you file to bring all of them flat. Chains are a bit different in that regard...if that makes sense...

To me, sharpening by hand is akin to being able to use an axe, if your chainsaw breaks down and you have an axe, you can still get the job done, albeit slower... Knowing how to use a file properly can render a wicked sharp chain...albeit slower than power...at the end of the day it's the lowest common denominator...

Regards,
TT

 

[Paul61]

It can, but it all depends. I'd take a sharp saw over a dull saw any day of the week. If the uniform teeth are dull, you can have them. There are a lot of variables, IMO.

Well, there is all types of sharpening machines and/or attachments that use power. Nothing wrong with them either, but filing by hand is a skill that is useful, since if you are in the woods and only have a file, you can sharpen your chain...people who become dependent on mechanical devices will often feel naked without said device.

Handsaws are a bit different, since the teeth get jointed when you file to bring all of them flat. Chains are a bit different in that regard...if that makes sense...

To me, sharpening by hand is akin to being able to use an axe, if your chainsaw breaks down and you have an axe, you can still get the job done, albeit slower... Knowing how to use a file properly can render a wicked sharp chain...albeit slower than power...at the end of the day it's the lowest common denominator...

Regards,
TT

Good post TT!
There was a Cricket on here (once or twice!) that would rather do it by hand than by machine....:censored:

 

[TraditionalTool]

Good post TT!
There was a Cricket on here (once or twice!) that would rather do it by hand than by machine....:censored:

I don't have anything against machines, just that one can't go wrong with knowing how to use a file, might save one's own arse one day...

I like to do things by hand, when possible. I work a lot of wood by hand. It is sometimes enjoying the journey rather than wanting to get to the destiny...

That being said, I do plan to do with a chainsaw what had been done for centuries with an axe...

Do others sharpen by hand around here? Or is that taboo?

Cheers,
TT

 

[scotclayshooter]

I sharpen by hand all the time now, I find it real easy and quick.
People bring me saws all the time to sharpen, I dont mind.

BTW a few odd teeth dont make much difference on a workchain IMO

 

[TraditionalTool]

I sharpen by hand all the time now, I find it real easy and quick.
People bring me saws all the time to sharpen, I dont mind.

BTW a few odd teeth dont make much difference on a workchain IMO

You know, many of the joinery saws I sharpen have 16 or more teeth per inch. At least chain saws do not require magnification! :biggrinbounce2:

Cheers,
TT

 

[046]

for round chain.. it's very efficient to sharpen by hand.
not so for square chain.. it's way more efficient to sharpen by a grinder.

some have gotten down filing square by hand. not me.. I can do it.. but don't have the patience to spend 15+ minutes per chain. vs filing round chain on the bar rarely takes more than 3-4 minutes.

once you get used to cutting with nice square chain... you don't want to switch back.
but for dirty wood... round is still the way to go.

someone sent me a link that Simington is making new square grinders again.

Do others sharpen by hand around here? Or is that taboo?

Cheers,
TT

 

[devonhubb]

someone sent me a link that Simington is making new square grinders again.

Yes. They are back in business. I just bought a raker grinding attachment and some other parts & pieces. He quoted me $789 for a new 451C swing arm grinder. They have no website and I believe that it is a one-man operation.

Their phone number is 1-888-247-6702.

Devon

 

[046]

just got off the line with the Simington folks... seems they've been in business the entire time.

could you please post a picture of the raker grinding attachment?
pretty sad... Simington has no website and no way to show what they sell.

Yes. They are back in business. I just bought a raker grinding attachment and some other parts & pieces. He quoted me $789 for a new 451C swing arm grinder. They have no website and I believe that it is a one-man operation.

Their phone number is 1-888-247-6702.

Devon