Rec climbing in New York State Parks

[EngineerDude]

Anyone have any familiarity with rules/regulations/policies governing rec climbing within the boundaries of New York State Parks? E.G. Adirondack Park, and most of interest to me, Green Lakes State Park (outside Fayetteville, NY). This latter park has several areas of old growth(maybe as much as 800 acres), including an area referred to as "Tuliptree Cathedral", a majestic stand of Liriodendron Tulipifer, some of which reportedly are 130 feet or more. (I didn't think they grew this big. Tough to tell from the ground. But even if not 130 feet, they are definitely big!)

Link to info on Green Lakes for anyone who's curious: http://www.championtrees.org/oldgrowth/surveys/GreenLakesSP.htm

 

[OTG BOSTON]

Not sure about NY.

My personal advice is to beg for forgiveness rather than ask for permission.

My own experience with the agency I work with has led me to this conclusion. For years I was doing rec climbing clinics with school kids and no one said boo. When I tried to get permission for other rec climbers to use park trees I was shot down cold, and slapped on the wrist for the Boston Rec climb that we did with a few of the guys I met here.

The war isn't over yet, but if I just kept flying below the radar I wouldn't be facing the uphill battle I have on my hands now.

 

[moss]

This is the dilemma for rec climbing. Keep it quiet and you can do what you want. It looks like there are many of years ahead of slogging through red tape to get official permission for many places.
-moss

 

[Climb020]

Better to just keep it hush, hush. I spoke with a NJ forester and what they told me is that it is there job to protect the forest. By climbing them we will cause some, even if only minimal, damage to the tree so they said no. I have tried to gain permission for another park as Moss knowns, but they never got back to me so I just took it as if they didn't want us to then they would have told me no. Good luck.

 

[EngineerDude]

Yeah, I figured there was a 90% chance it would be as you all describe it, essentially that bureaucracy, etc. would stand as obstacles (sigh, discouraging), but on the 10% chance that someone might have something positive to report ("Yeah, it's easy, just call this number ...", etc.) I thought I'd toss this out there.

The "ask forgiveness, not permission" thing is already a primary component of my normal behavior, and so it will be in this case. Thanks for the input.

 

[jmack]

Anyone have any familiarity with rules/regulations/policies governing rec climbing within the boundaries of New York State Parks? E.G. Adirondack Park, and most of interest to me, Green Lakes State Park (outside Fayetteville, NY). This latter park has several areas of old growth(maybe as much as 800 acres), including an area referred to as "Tuliptree Cathedral", a majestic stand of Liriodendron Tulipifer, some of which reportedly are 130 feet or more. (I didn't think they grew this big. Tough to tell from the ground. But even if not 130 feet, they are definitely big!)

Link to info on Green Lakes for anyone who's curious: http://www.championtrees.org/oldgrowth/surveys/GreenLakesSP.htm

i would think you would get a no in nyc parks we had a no rec climb policy it had teeth because fines and tickets were issued

 

[moss]

Thanks for the link Jmack, Green Lake looks like a great place. This doesn't look look like a good place to walk in and climb. It does look like a good place to talk to the staff and discuss starting a rec climbing program. In Georgia a park ranger named Jody Rice has started a pilot rec climbing program in FDR state park. I'm hoping this will be a successful model to demonstrate feasibility and benefit for other state parks in the U.S.
-moss

 

[jeremy11]

just pull the rope up and say "come and get me!" if you bring food and clothing for a while then just wait until the guy leaves when he gets hungry or his shift is over...

 

[adkranger]

For NY it all depends on the specific property you are talking about. There are Parks and then there are Parks, confused? Green Lakes, Robert Moses and Letchworth State Parks are decidedly not the same thing as the Adirondack and Catskill Parks. The former are recreationally developed parks in traditional sense administered by the Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation(OPRHP) and you are likely to find more resistance to this kind of activity due to their more restrictive and protective rules for park users. The Adirondack and Catskill Parks are a mixture of public, private and industrial(timber/mineral) lands and are jointly managed by the Department of Environmental Conservation, the Adirondack Park Agency and privately. In the Adks & Catskills State Lands are Forest Preserve and managed according to their designation (Wilderness, Wild Forest, etc) for sustaining certain uses and protections. Rec climbing on Forest Preserve lands would (generally)be acceptable just as rock climbing, ice climbing, backcountry skiing, etc... are so long as the resource, in this case the trees, is protected from over use and or abuse and undo damage. And of course the user, rec climber, assumes all liability, responsibility for their pursuits. On the private lands in the Parks one would have to acquire permission from the property owner of course. Clear as mud, right?
BTW I'm sure I can outlast ya on the ground, or just climb up after ya if tired of waiting. The treed Black Bear never wins.

 

[ciscoguy01]

Marks

Anyone have any familiarity with rules/regulations/policies governing rec climbing within the boundaries of New York State Parks? E.G. Adirondack Park, and most of interest to me, Green Lakes State Park (outside Fayetteville, NY). This latter park has several areas of old growth(maybe as much as 800 acres), including an area referred to as "Tuliptree Cathedral", a majestic stand of Liriodendron Tulipifer, some of which reportedly are 130 feet or more. (I didn't think they grew this big. Tough to tell from the ground. But even if not 130 feet, they are definitely big!)

Link to info on Green Lakes for anyone who's curious: http://www.championtrees.org/oldgrowth/surveys/GreenLakesSP.htm

I will tell you this. I know from my latest $1500 fine for marking trees here in the Adk's that you cannot leave a single mark on any trees in the state park. My cousin is State DEC and gives out tickets for stuff like this in the NYS parks. I'll ask him tomorrow and see what he says. Will get back to you on this...

 

[adkranger]

Cisco, if your cousin is NYS DEC he doen't patrol State Parks, possibly Forest Preserve? I find it hard to believe you got fined $1500 for merely "marking" State trees. Sure a few didn't fall onto the back of your truck? Like in 16-18" chunks?:greenchainsaw:

Either way, on topic; as long as you do not damage the trees, you may climb them at your own risk. Much the same as rock and ice climbers at Chapel Pond or Pokemoonshine Mt.

 

[ciscoguy01]

Fine

Cisco, if your cousin is NYS DEC he doen't patrol State Parks, possibly Forest Preserve? I find it hard to believe you got fined $1500 for merely "marking" State trees. Sure a few didn't fall onto the back of your truck? Like in 16-18" chunks?:greenchainsaw:

Either way, on topic; as long as you do not damage the trees, you may climb them at your own risk. Much the same as rock and ice climbers at Chapel Pond or Pokemoonshine Mt.

I marked a trail on one of the trailless peaks dude. $1500 was the outcome of marking a non marked trail. It's called defacing trees on state land. Either way, all good. No, DEC dudes don't patrol all of them, but since they are part of the NYS parks and rec system they have to be knowledgeable on laws in the different areas since they are state Encon police. I know he used to work down there 3 or 4 times a year, hence, I'll call him tom. and ask him dude. If he doesn't know, nothing lost in askin eh?

 

[adkranger]

$1500 for marking a bandit trail is pretty harsh. I've seen timber theifs get less.

DEC is not part of Parks & Rec., two entirely different departments/entities. DEC officers do not patrol State Parks, NYS Park Police do. The point I was trying make earlier was the distinction between developed State Parks and the Adk Park, not the same thing at all. Completely different rules and regs for each, administered by different departments and patrolled by different personnel. Your cousin may have an answer for you, if you ask about a specific State Park. As to Forest Preserve lands in the Adks I believe I've already given you the answer.

 

[ciscoguy01]

Ahhhh

$1500 for marking a bandit trail is pretty harsh. I've seen timber theifs get less.

DEC is not part of Parks & Rec., two entirely different departments/entities. DEC officers do not patrol State Parks, NYS Park Police do. The point I was trying make earlier was the distinction between developed State Parks and the Adk Park, not the same thing at all. Completely different rules and regs for each, administered by different departments and patrolled by different personnel. Your cousin may have an answer for you, if you ask about a specific State Park. As to Forest Preserve lands in the Adks I believe I've already given you the answer.

Gotcha dude. I get what your saying. Only thing you need to remember, a state forest ranger showed up at my door with an encon police. At St. Huberts trail head there's always a DEC Encon police officer to patrol that area. I know park police can't go outside park and rec areas, not sure how that works buddy. As far as Encon police, yea, they can go anywhere in the state and pretty much do whatever. They actually have all the powers of the State police and several others. They can write you a ticket for speeding, then when finished with that, take your gun and your vehicle for jacking the deer you were speeding to get away from. Also, it's only the Adk park that I'm more familiar with, not the others down south of us guy. I'm not sure about that. And to think, 6 or 7 yrs ago I got accepted to the park police and turned it down cause the pay was sh17. But yea dude, I know Forest rangers can go anywhere in the ADK park as well as Encon, I see them all the time patrolling up where I cut wood looking for hunters/4 wheelers etc... That's deep inside the park for sure, it's in Redford NY. Can you explain that other part to me about the seperate entities? I don't quite get that guy, not too familiar with the different organizations. Thanks for the info guy.

 

[jmack]

I will tell you this. I know from my latest $1500 fine for marking trees here in the Adk's that you cannot leave a single mark on any trees in the state park. My cousin is State DEC and gives out tickets for stuff like this in the NYS parks. I'll ask him tomorrow and see what he says. Will get back to you on this...

there goes da teeth

 

[adkranger]

"Can you explain that other part to me about the seperate entities? I don't quite get that guy, not too familiar with the different organizations."

Cisco, let's see if I can explain it better. The Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation(OPRHP) is the New York entity that administers, maintains and preserves the State's "developed" State Parks and Historic Sites (Federal Example would be the National Park Service). Examples of these parks would be the fore mentioned Green Lakes S.P., Letchworth S.P., Jones Beach S.P., Silvan Beach S.P., Delta Lake, Bear Mt. S.P., Niagra Falls S.P. etc.... These are usually highly developed, fee access recreational parks. They also have many historic sites and public campgrounds across the state. These parks are outside the Blue Line, outside the Adirondack and Catskill "Parks". OPRHP has their own police force, NYS Park Police, to patrol these lands but are state police officers meaning that they can and do enforce the law anywhere as needed(powers not limited to park).

The Department of Environmental Conservation(DEC or sometimes referred to as ENCON) (Federal equivalents U.S. Forest Service + Environmental Protection Agency) administers & maintains over six million acres of State Lands across New York (almost half inside the Blue Line) along with environmental protection mandates. These State Lands are less(or not) developed and are mostly free access (except campgrounds in Adks). DEC State Lands come in many different classifications depending on location, management goals and levels of protection. (i.e. Forest Preserve, State Forest, Wildlife Management Area, Unique Area) DEC State Lands in the Adk "Park" are classified as Forest Preserve and carry some the highest levels of protection as any public lands in the nation as they are designated in Article XIV of NY's Constitution. These lands come in several sub-classifications (i.e. Wilderness Area, Wild Forest, Canoe Area, etc..) depending on level of sustained use. NYS DEC has two enforcement arms to protect it's interests, Environmental Conservation Officers(ECOs) and Forest Rangers, both are state police officers. ECOs primary duties are enforcement of the Fish & Wildlife laws and environmental quality and Rangers primary duties are protection of State Lands, wildland SAR and wildfire management. Though Rangers are the primary stewards of State Lands both flavors of green suits can be expected to be on the prowl on any given parcel of State Land.

Did I clear anything up or am I :deadhorse:

 

[ciscoguy01]

Yessiree

"Can you explain that other part to me about the seperate entities? I don't quite get that guy, not too familiar with the different organizations."

Cisco, let's see if I can explain it better. The Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation(OPRHP) is the New York entity that administers, maintains and preserves the State's "developed" State Parks and Historic Sites (Federal Example would be the National Park Service). Examples of these parks would be the fore mentioned Green Lakes S.P., Letchworth S.P., Jones Beach S.P., Silvan Beach S.P., Delta Lake, Bear Mt. S.P., Niagra Falls S.P. etc.... These are usually highly developed, fee access recreational parks. They also have many historic sites and public campgrounds across the state. These parks are outside the Blue Line, outside the Adirondack and Catskill "Parks". OPRHP has their own police force, NYS Park Police, to patrol these lands but are state police officers meaning that they can and do enforce the law anywhere as needed(powers not limited to park).

The Department of Environmental Conservation(DEC or sometimes referred to as ENCON) (Federal equivalents U.S. Forest Service + Environmental Protection Agency) administers & maintains over six million acres of State Lands across New York (almost half inside the Blue Line) along with environmental protection mandates. These State Lands are less(or not) developed and are mostly free access (except campgrounds in Adks). DEC State Lands come in many different classifications depending on location, management goals and levels of protection. (i.e. Forest Preserve, State Forest, Wildlife Management Area, Unique Area) DEC State Lands in the Adk "Park" are classified as Forest Preserve and carry some the highest levels of protection as any public lands in the nation as they are designated in Article XIV of NY's Constitution. These lands come in several sub-classifications (i.e. Wilderness Area, Wild Forest, Canoe Area, etc..) depending on level of sustained use. NYS DEC has two enforcement arms to protect it's interests, Environmental Conservation Officers(ECOs) and Forest Rangers, both are state police officers. ECOs primary duties are enforcement of the Fish & Wildlife laws and environmental quality and Rangers primary duties are protection of State Lands, wildland SAR and wildfire management. Though Rangers are the primary stewards of State Lands both flavors of green suits can be expected to be on the prowl on any given parcel of State Land.

Did I clear anything up or am I :deadhorse:

Awesome dude. That is the best info I've read in a long time on the differences of the entities and I really appreciate you explaining that in such depth. I forgot to ask my cousin again, lmao.

 

[moss]

In all the discussion about whether or not you'll get fined $1500 for marking an "unmarked trail" I hope it wasn't overlooked that adkranger answered the original question and provided some positive information on rec climbing access on NY public lands.
-moss