Recommendations for OWB

[chaikwa]

same thing with ash pans. I like the demonstration of emptying an ashpan on p&m website. except I don't think ull be able to grab that center handle right after it comes out of a hot stove. shoveling it out gives u more room for wood in the burn chamber but u get a face full of smoke doing it. another thing to consider is if u have a grate it will get clogged while u r cleaning the stove. so u have to rake it unless u get a shaker grate. my grate has 1 inch gaps and it still gets clogged. hope this helps.

It certainly DOES help! Great over-view of the various models. You and I would get along great I think. Our philosophies are pretty much parallel. The Brute Force I'm currently waiting to see has an ash clean-out but no pan. The owner of Brute Force told me if an ash pan would make or break the deal, he'd make one for me. Their grates is also where the forced draft comes out of. That SEEMS like a good idea at least. They're using a thick walled firebox too.

Properly seasoned wood is best no matter what you burn it in.

I agree. I'm planning on using properly seasoned wood, but I know the way things go and am trying to be realistic with myself when I say the OWB will probably see some green stuff from time to time.

The local school is heated by a gasser, chips, but as they freeze the logs are chipped and used within a week.

P&M tried to sell me on a chip gasser too. That just may be the way of the future, but I don't want to be their R&D department either.

 

[Como]

Wood Chip boilers are nothing new, I do not know about P&M.

I would have gone that way but the cost for my situation was too high. If I could have chipped once a year then it would have been different.

You will be using lots more wood so you can burn green wood.

 

[leon]

Owb

Thank you Hupte for mentioning once again the value of thermal storage.

For the money you will soon spend/have spent on fuel you could purchase
one or two or three of the large Harman boilers.

I have the same wood and coal boiler I bought thirty years ago and
it is half filled with fire brick to create a heat sink which keeps the
fire hot and radiates heat back into the burn chamber when it is cooler.


For all the work you are contemplating using one or two of these units
for steam service to your homes and shops would not be far fetched
as far as ideas go simply because the low pressure steam has much
more energy than a hydronic heating system ever will and is less
likely to be freeze damaged.


You could build a wood shed or buy one of these insulated prebuilt structures
with an overhead door and have these boilers tied in together as pair of steam generating
boilers feeding a single pipe system to the various points with a single underground steam pipe
with radiators that have manual thermostast controls on the radiators which would permit you to shut the radiators off or keep the temperature very low when these areas are unoccupied.

A steam system will create huge amounts of energy for heating and hot water when needed and it takes very little water to do this.



The overhead door wouldd allow you to feed the boilers out of the weather and permit you todump wood and or coal in the shed and you could also use steam radiators to dry the green wood as well in a separate part of the insulated shed in the off season as well. After the wood has been dried you could store it in the area where the boler are and have it ready to use.

 

[mdmjrm]

I am in SE MI and have a Woodmaster 5500. Heats my 1800 sq ft house and 40x60x14 pole barn. Been going for 7 years. I have replaced a draft fan and the rubber dampers on both fans over the past couple of years. I have friends with Heatmor, CB, Homebuilt boilers and they are all happy. I personally would not buy a furnace without draft fan(s) even though I have replaced one. It really cuts down on the smoke and I know it's taboo on this site but it allows more flexibility if you get into a situation with unseasoned wood.

If there is one bit of advice I can give.....

Buy the right size OWB for the space you want to heat. I have the ability not to heat my barn and the 5500 is overkill for my 1800 sq ft house so it uses more wood than a "right sized" unit to just heating the house.

Buy expensive PEX like thermopex from CB. There is not a good inexpensive way that I have seen where you can bury pex in the ground and not have water intrusion. Once the groundwater contacts the PEX it's over. $11 a foot is pricey but worth it in my opinion. I just put 300 feet in two years ago. Did it cheap ($5-$6/ft) the first time and had green grass over the pex all year long. Hope this helps.

 

[chaikwa]

Wood Chip boilers are nothing new, I do not know about P&M.

Yes, I know a lot of mills I've worked at used the chips and waste wood for heating water for use in the kilns. I think it's new to P&M tho. That's where I was going with the R&D comment. I LOVE their units but their customer service absolutely sucks. And I'm very unfamiliar with the art of burning biomass. I can see myself having lots of questions, if not problems, and if they aren't responsive to someone ready to spend 15 grand on the purchase of their product they certainly aren't going to be of any help AFTER the sale.

Thank you Hupte for mentioning once again the value of thermal storage.

For the money you will soon spend/have spent on fuel you could purchase
one or two or three of the large Harman boilers.

I agree with your view of water storage and the Harmon units, but I'm about as familiar with those methods as I am with the biomass stuff. I don't have the time to be learning, experimenting, building structures and all the other things associated with this way of heating. If I had even a clue about that stuff I'd delve into it, mainly because of what you and a few others have expressed here. But currently I'm running 2 non-profit organizations, an industrial health and safety training business, a part time welding business, I teach for the National Fire Academy, the Massachusetts Firefighting Academy, I'm a contract technical writer and advisor for the NHTSA, am currently updating an instructional manual I wrote several years ago for CDL drivers and also just took a position as a co-chair for a smoke alarm initiative program for the State of Michigan. Sometime between now and next heating season I have to decide on this OWB issue, acquire it and install it and build a firewood processor so I can feed it without spending any more time than I need to. On top of all that, I own/run a 160 acre farm that also serves as a training center for our health and safety training and forestry programs for kids. I'm trying to convert one of our barns into a living area and new office space, but I'm sawing all my own lumber for that project which will be neat when I'm done because I'll be able to look at it and know that every last scrap of wood material came from trees on my property and sawn on my own sawmill. I really can't afford, (time-wise), to be experimenting with something that I have no background in.

Now with all that said, if you'd like to come out here, tell me what to buy, get it here and help me install it and set it up, I'd be a REAL happy camper! :msp_biggrin:

 

[chaikwa]

I am in SE MI and have a Woodmaster 5500. Heats my 1800 sq ft house and 40x60x14 pole barn. Been going for 7 years. I have replaced a draft fan and the rubber dampers on both fans over the past couple of years. I have friends with Heatmor, CB, Homebuilt boilers and they are all happy. I personally would not buy a furnace without draft fan(s) even though I have replaced one. It really cuts down on the smoke and I know it's taboo on this site but it allows more flexibility if you get into a situation with unseasoned wood.

The draft fan is the one thing that I'm really wanting. Just makes more sense to me.

If there is one bit of advice I can give.....

Buy the right size OWB for the space you want to heat. I have the ability not to heat my barn and the 5500 is overkill for my 1800 sq ft house so it uses more wood than a "right sized" unit to just heating the house.

There-in lies another problem... right now I'll be heating a big old house with 17 rooms, no insulation and single pane windows. We will, in the future, (probably 5 to 10 years), be selling that house. At that time it may or may not remain in the heating loop. If the new owners want me to supply their heat, fine. If they don't, I'll have an OWB twice the size I need to heat the remaining living area/office/training center. Having 2 units to buy, install and feed doesn't really excite me either. Twice the cost and work.

Buy expensive PEX like thermopex from CB. There is not a good inexpensive way that I have seen where you can bury pex in the ground and not have water intrusion. Once the groundwater contacts the PEX it's over. $11 a foot is pricey but worth it in my opinion. I just put 300 feet in two years ago. Did it cheap ($5-$6/ft) the first time and had green grass over the pex all year long. Hope this helps.

I was wondering if there was really a difference in this stuff. My friend up the street has his buried 4 feet in the ground and it still melts the snow in the winter. He went with the cheaper stuff and it was 15 years ago. But ALL the OWB dealers I've talked to tell me that I could lay their stuff on the ground, in the open, and snow wouldn't melt off it. I wonder how the CB dealer would feel if I bought just his Pex from him? :msp_rolleyes:

 

[Como]

You can buy a Garn in a Box, the more you post the more I think you would be best served by a gasser with lots of storage. Reduced demand, just fire it less often.

Thermopex is just the CB brand name, I am sure they buy it in from one of the main manufacturers. With depth you are thinking water lines. My water line is 10ft down, my heat line maybe 4ft. I put one on top of the other. Insurance.

To maximise efficiency you need to use as low a temperature distribution system as you can. It also maximises your storage. If you need say 120F water and your Storage is at 180F then you have much further to go than if you need 150F.

I have no idea how steam storage works, never come across it.

 

[Como]

About 4 years ago I went to see a Garn 1500.

The only complaint was that it was using more wood than they were expecting.

They had not stockpiled wood, it was December and they were cutting and burning within days.

 

[leon]

owb

Yes, I know a lot of mills I've worked at used the chips and waste wood for heating water for use in the kilns. I think it's new to P&M tho. That's where I was going with the R&D comment. I LOVE their units but their customer service absolutely sucks. And I'm very unfamiliar with the art of burning biomass. I can see myself having lots of questions, if not problems, and if they aren't responsive to someone ready to spend 15 grand on the purchase of their product they certainly aren't going to be of any help AFTER the sale.

I agree with your view of water storage and the Harmon units, but I'm about as familiar with those methods as I am with the biomass stuff. I don't have the time to be learning, experimenting, building structures and all the other things associated with this way of heating. If I had even a clue about that stuff I'd delve into it, mainly because of what you and a few others have expressed here. But currently I'm running 2 non-profit organizations, an industrial health and safety training business, a part time welding business, I teach for the National Fire Academy, the Massachusetts Firefighting Academy, I'm a contract technical writer and advisor for the NHTSA, am currently updating an instructional manual I wrote several years ago for CDL drivers and also just took a position as a co-chair for a smoke alarm initiative program for the State of Michigan. Sometime between now and next heating season I have to decide on this OWB issue, acquire it and install it and build a firewood processor so I can feed it without spending any more time than I need to. On top of all that, I own/run a 160 acre farm that also serves as a training center for our health and safety training and forestry programs for kids. I'm trying to convert one of our barns into a living area and new office space, but I'm sawing all my own lumber for that project which will be neat when I'm done because I'll be able to look at it and know that every last scrap of wood material came from trees on my property and sawn on my own sawmill. I really can't afford, (time-wise), to be experimenting with something that I have no background in.

Now with all that said, if you'd like to come out here, tell me what to buy, get it here and help me install it and set it up, I'd be a REAL happy camper! :msp_biggrin:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


If I get rich in the next couple of days I will come out and help you.

BUT just in case these folks should help you with any issues; as the
state and national plumbing codes apply.



www.chelseaheartlandfireplaces.com


Chelsea Heartland Fireplaces
E. Old US 12
#6
Chelsea Michigan

1-734-433-1461


Ask them to come and talk to you about the SF360 wood and coal boiler
and explain your heating needs.

Making steam for your situation would be much easier and cost effective
for each location and you could make a steam wood kiln at the same time
that could dry your wood in a few days rather than waiting six months or
having to burn green wood.

 

[ffpup]

Owb

I have a Taylor Brand water stove and love it. I just bought a new one. My last one was a early 80's model and I would still be using it if I had not have been slack about maintaining it. To me the Taylor is the most simple and reliable on the market and the CB is the most complicated. They are full of electronics. Electronics don't like heat, water, and vibration and you have all of the above with a water stove. My Taylor has one aqua stat and a pump, thats it, simple and reliable. This is only my opinion but mine works fine.

 

[chaikwa]

I wanted you all to know that just NOW, Portage & Main's Michigan sales rep called me back. I had first contacted him back around the time I started this thread, so that's almost 2 months. He "didn't remember talking to me" the first time when he basically refused to come to my site, but now thinks he might be in my area in the next several days. (he's only an hour from me)

I still have the Brute Force guy coming out this week or next too. I first contacted him right before Christmas and he was going to come out the next week. But to his credit, he has called me on average of twice a week. First he had a family death, then he and his whole family came down with the flu crap that's going around. I had that too and it's no fun! At least he has kept in contact with me and has never refused to come out. He always asks if it's ok to delay his visit again.

For anyone that might still be interested in the thread, I'll let you know how this all plays out.

 

[cantoo]

Have you considered getting a used one and trying it out? I haven't been looking for one but stumbled onto a deal and bought a 2000 Pacific Western that's been sitting a bunch of years for a deal. It needs a fan and some sheet metal work but considering I was going to try to build my own this is a huge jump ahead for cheap. And it might get me off my azz and get started. I'm hoping this is one of the models that got build long before the Wood Doctor got involved.
Seeing as some areas are passing no owb laws maybe you can find a quick deal on one. You can always sell it when you find the new one you want.

 

[chaikwa]

Have you considered getting a used one and trying it out? I haven't been looking for one but stumbled onto a deal and bought a 2000 Pacific Western that's been sitting a bunch of years for a deal. It needs a fan and some sheet metal work but considering I was going to try to build my own this is a huge jump ahead for cheap. And it might get me off my azz and get started. I'm hoping this is one of the models that got build long before the Wood Doctor got involved.
Seeing as some areas are passing no owb laws maybe you can find a quick deal on one. You can always sell it when you find the new one you want.

I'm fairly familiar with HOW they work as I take care of a couple of my friends boilers when they go away. I thought of building my own or looking for a used one, but I just want to do this once and get it over with. Which is another reason I want to go with new. If it messes up I WILL be calling whoever made it to tell them to fix it or come get it.

 

[hondaracer2oo4]

An alternative to the CB Thermopex is spray foam. I dug my trench 30 inches down(by hand), layed in my 1 inch Pex and had the local closed cell spray foam guy come out and we sprayed about 4 inches on the bottom of the trench, dropped the Pex into it and he did another 4 inches on top so basically it is in a 8x8 block of spray foam. Cost me $600 to have him spray 80 Feet in the ground and I had him spray my whole boiler while he was at it. I don't melt any snow.

 

[hunter h]

owb

I have a hardy h2 and like the design. My mom and dad have had one as well for several years with out problem other then changing a relay. Two of my brothers also have them and like them. My oldest brother has the hardy h4 that is larger he heats his house 26 x44 his shop 36 x48 wood shop 12 x 24 and domestic water. I have the hardy h2 heating total of about 3000 sq ft part of that is unfinished basement. The only other one I have had any experance with is a brand I think is called wood therm kind of like a cb. The only thing that I do not like is the ash removal. The hardy has a ash door to remove them with a fire forced air up through wood simple design built well works well nice door that seals well. The only thing I would do diffrent is I would spend more time and money on insulating lines when I did the install. Good luck.

 

[nuckinfutz355]

Stove?

Did you decide on a stove? I am still trying to decide, I'm down to a burnrite, hawken or woodmaster. I know the woodmaster will heat my house fine as my uncle has a larger home and he has had no problems and gets good burn times. I am afraid of their warranty though....Does woodmaster require you to send the stove to minnesota? I've read the hawken hooro stories but those all seem like they have been 4-5 years ago. Has all that stuff been taken care of? And then theres a burnrite stove, Does anyone have any of these? I am going to my local dealers house and check his out but other than that, I dont know of anybody that has one. What about a shaver??? Are they junk? The local dealer to me replied to my email twice but then when I asked to come check his stove out, he stopped replying. makes me suspicious. Please help!

 

[chaikwa]

Did you decide on a stove? I am still trying to decide, I'm down to a burnrite, hawken or woodmaster. I know the woodmaster will heat my house fine as my uncle has a larger home and he has had no problems and gets good burn times. I am afraid of their warranty though....Does woodmaster require you to send the stove to minnesota? I've read the hawken hooro stories but those all seem like they have been 4-5 years ago. Has all that stuff been taken care of? And then theres a burnrite stove, Does anyone have any of these? I am going to my local dealers house and check his out but other than that, I dont know of anybody that has one. What about a shaver??? Are they junk? The local dealer to me replied to my email twice but then when I asked to come check his stove out, he stopped replying. makes me suspicious. Please help!

I have one more guy coming out Sunday from Brute Force. Never heard of them until I ran across their website by accident, but I like their ideas and the way they put a stove together. We'll see what the dealer has to offer.

I liked the design of the Woodmaster and the salesman was honest, up-front and the most resposive of the whole bunch. He didn't say anything about sending the stove back in the event of a warranty issue.

The Hawken guy was prompt and resposive too as well as honest. He told me they didn't make a stove big enough for what I'm trying to do without working it to death. I was impressed by that, but then Friday the Hawken rep from the factory called me and told me the salesman didn't know what he was talking about and they asked if they could call me back today. (I was tied up with a customer when they called Friday) THen today they never called liked THEY asked to do. That kind of thing doesn't instill much confidense as far as I'm concerned.

I haven't looked at the other stove you mentioned. I DID finally get a quote from the Portage and Main rep. Most of these OWB's have been coming in around the $8000 mark. P&M was $10,000.

The Brute Force rep and I have been going around since Christmas, trying to set up a time he could come out. That's a lot of time to wait, but he has faithfully called me weekly to explain why he had to break an appointment or to schedule a new one. And travel here in Michigan hasn't been the best, so I don't have a problem with broken appointments... AS LONG AS HE CALLS! A couple of the various company rep's didn't even have the courtesy to return my initial call. When that happens, they get crossed off the list.

I have also been contemplating building my own. I AM, after-all, a welder fabricator by trade. My stumbling block has been the ability to find suitable tanks for the firebox and water jacket. I could have plate steel rolled to form a round firebox, but after that and buying new sheet stock, i'll be pushing the same price I could buy a stove with a warranty for.

 

[nuckinfutz355]

I have one more guy coming out Sunday from Brute Force. Never heard of them until I ran across their website by accident, but I like their ideas and the way they put a stove together. We'll see what the dealer has to offer.

I liked the design of the Woodmaster and the salesman was honest, up-front and the most resposive of the whole bunch. He didn't say anything about sending the stove back in the event of a warranty issue.

The Hawken guy was prompt and resposive too as well as honest. He told me they didn't make a stove big enough for what I'm trying to do without working it to death. I was impressed by that, but then Friday the Hawken rep from the factory called me and told me the salesman didn't know what he was talking about and they asked if they could call me back today. (I was tied up with a customer when they called Friday) THen today they never called liked THEY asked to do. That kind of thing doesn't instill much confidense as far as I'm concerned.

I haven't looked at the other stove you mentioned. I DID finally get a quote from the Portage and Main rep. Most of these OWB's have been coming in around the $8000 mark. P&M was $10,000.

The Brute Force rep and I have been going around since Christmas, trying to set up a time he could come out. That's a lot of time to wait, but he has faithfully called me weekly to explain why he had to break an appointment or to schedule a new one. And travel here in Michigan hasn't been the best, so I don't have a problem with broken appointments... AS LONG AS HE CALLS! A couple of the various company rep's didn't even have the courtesy to return my initial call. When that happens, they get crossed off the list.

I have also been contemplating building my own. I AM, after-all, a welder fabricator by trade. My stumbling block has been the ability to find suitable tanks for the firebox and water jacket. I could have plate steel rolled to form a round firebox, but after that and buying new sheet stock, i'll be pushing the same price I could buy a stove with a warranty for.

The hawken dealer I have been talking to out of Jackon was very nice and informative. Hawken has a good website with a monthly newsletter they send out and a blog. Of course anyone can make it look good. Check out the Burnrite Stove. They are made in Mt. Pleasant, MI. I've like what the dealer has said about them, and everytime I've sent an email to the company under contact us, he has replied the next day with anwering all my questions. They make some pretty big stoves.

 

[geobckmstr]

Crown royal

Why not sst? I also spent months researching the best stove and picked crown royal out of minn. Total control of kick in and kick off of fan up to 30 degrees differents. Variable speed of fan. You being a fabricater know their is no camparison of sst. to crs. Round fire chamber, ash drawer with shaker grate. Seems to have everything you want. Love having all the control. in warm weather here in minn. 25 to 35 degrees I keep my water 120 kickin to 145 kick off, and it heats the house just fine( Wife keeps it at 72 degrees) cold weather to -20 below then go up to 180 in 150 off Use a lot less wood at these temps. CB is kept at 180 off 175 in. air blows in from bottom. usually dont use fan just let dampers open and close with good wood, Just use fan to start fire fron coals in minutes or to clean unit with fan on high my chimney looks like a jet. I feel with all these controls I use allot les wood.

 

[CG Racing]

I have a central cl-40 manufactured in 94 that I bought used super because I was skeptical on the life I would get out of it. It is a 400 gallon unit, natural draft that I use to heat 1450 sq ft house, domestic hot water, and a 24x30 detached garage. When I bought the boiler it was empty so I looked very closely for any leaks I could visual see without actually seeing it leak. I was kinda nervous about the purchase, the people seemed honest, blah blah blah so I did it anyway. Once I got it home I continued to inspect and decided I was going to try a leak down test with compressed air with 5 psi. If it holds that, then it's gonna hold water! It held pressure for 2 days in a constant temperature without any loss! Long and short of it, I have friends with other brands that use 2-3 times the wood I use and its tought to beat the quality of the central. I would also recommend buying their super expensive burial pipe also as I feel like its a good investment. When I light my stove October 1st, I shut the valve off on my propane take and man does it feel good to do so. Bigger is for sure better with boilers also.