Rope for advanced hitches

[treeclimber165]

Has anyone here used the 8mm New England T-900 or any of the other Sta-Set ropes? I've been using T-900 based on another climber's recommendation and like how it handles. But I recently found some tech info showing that it can start losing strength at 150*. Some of the other Sta-Set ropes have a lower rated strength but higher heat tolerance and are much cheaper. Here is the page where I got this info. http://www.ropeinc.com/marine_color_guide.htm
T-900- 7300 lbs, Spectra has progressive strength loss over 150*
Sta-Set- 3000 lbs, progressive strength loss over 300*
Sta-Set X- 4400 lbs, progressive strength loss over 300*
Sta Set X Plus- 4400 lbs, progressive strength loss over 430*
T-900 is well over $1 per foot, the 3 others are from 39 cents to 63 cents per foot.

I've tried the single braid Tenex and wasn't impressed. For this thread I was hoping to limit discussion to the double braids like Ultra Tech, T-900 and alternatives. I really like how they handle.

 

[NickfromWI]

Sta Set

Brian- Good for you for doing some research! The info you found is the exact reason why I use the polyester doublebraid Sta-Set, and NOT the t-900. Cheaper, higher heat resistance, very spliceable...how could you NOT like Sta-set over t-900.

do people tend to replace the t-900 slings when they wear through the cover? if not, how long are all of you keeping them after you DO wear through the cover?

love
nick

ps- i've never used Sta-Set X in tree applications. I don't know if it's fuzzy spun-polyester cover would be good or bad for friction hitches. it might be worth it for you to buy a few feet and try it out. while you're at it, take a bit of it apart---you'll see that the insides of that particular rope are quite different from anything else you've ever seen.

 

[treeclimber165]

Lovey,
By the looks of the picture, the Sta-Set X has the same cover as the Sta-Set and the T-900. You must be thinking of another type of rope with a fuzzy cover. I was considering it because of the almost 50% higher strength over the Sta-Set for only 10 cents per foot difference in price.

 

[NickfromWI]

Don't let the picture fool you..

Brian- I'm quite familiar with the construction of the Sta-Set X. Even though you can't see it in the picture, it has a fuzzy feel to it because it's designed as a line sailors would use a lot with their hands (as opposed to a winch), or something like that. It's a great rope, but I'm not yet convinced that it has a place in the trees. It's very low stretch.
If you do order some Sta-Set from them, order a few feet of the X, too. You'll see what I'm talking about. If you do use it for climbing, let me know what you think about it.

love
nick

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I like Ultra Tech. Picked some up at TCI for $1.15 per foot. If you don't burn out of the tree, it'll last a lot longer. It also doesn't have the spectra in it so it's got a very high heat resistant core, and a slightly looser polyester cover than the t-900.
Sampson rope is a name that goes hand in hand with arborist applications. Over the years I've used a lot of different ropes and have never been disappointed with a Sampson rope. thimk about it, "Stable braid","Ultra Tech", "Blue Streak". What do the others offer, "Almost a strong as Stable Braid", "Kinda Tech","Pee Pee Yellow Streak". Oh well, you now know where my loyalty is.
Your best bet is to buy ropes that the manufacturer recommends for the application.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Mike, try some of the smaller diameter Stable Braid for your tress cord. It works great.

5/16's MBS (minimum breaking strength) is over 4k and has a similar polly sheath to the high-tech lines. When I 20ft it cost me around .65/ft ($13) and a spool will cost around .35/ft.

Why would you need the hightech fibers in a closed loop friction hitch?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by John Paul Sanborn
Why would you need the hightech fibers in a closed loop friction hitch?

Why not, to save a buck and a half?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Why not, it adds up over time, especialy if more then one person in the company are climbing on tress cords.

 

[treeclimber165]

That's exactly why I started this thread. I've only been using an advanced hitch for a short while and have tried 3-4 different cords. I do NOT like the Tenex, it wore out WAY too fast (3-4 days). I do like how the T-900 handles and wanted to find out about alternatives that use a similar outer jacket. No need to spend $150 per year on tres cords to reduce wear on a $100 rope.
For now, it's looking like the basic Sta-Set might be my best bet. Judging by the wear on my StableBraid bull rope, I'm afraid the 8mm StableBraid would wear as fast as the Tenex. That stuff is practically unusable without friction savers/ pulleys/ lowering devices.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think that the polyfin(?) filler in the more budget tree lines (Arborplex, Pro-Master, Arbor-plus etc.) renders them not only lighter and cheaper, but weaker and lower heat tolerance. These are 12 and 3 strand lines, therefore the fibres are in positions to affect the outward characteristics of the lines (strength and heat tolerance).

The safety blue family of lines is divided on this. In the 3 strands (Plain and HyVee), these fibres would be in a position to weaken the heat tloerance and line, so they are omitted. In the 16 strand pair of safety blues (Once again,Plain and HyVee), the weaker (cheaper and lighter)less heat tolerant fibres, are packaged in the center strands, making the most sensible use for these fibres- as non-strength-debilitating filler that is sheltered from where heat would effect it also! The HyVee (tracer colored) lines are always rated less than the totally, natural white; Samson says that this is because the dye molecules take up space too; so there fore there is less actual nylon molecules in the same given size of colored lines!

i know that is not directly to the question, but just general info that i have been using for line choice for some time. i'm a Samson fan too, but i like how New England (all 4 safety bluz) have handled these fibres!

i tend to stay away from the polyfin lines for these reasons, finding safety blue family the exception, because of their strategic composition of place-meant of them.

Still liking 4tucked 3strand eye splices, for short, tapered, fast, cheap, customizable, long lasting, strong etc. tails and lanyards.......

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Three strand is so '80's.

The problem with 3 strand or twelve strand is that every fiber in the rope comes to the outside of the rope at some point. This is bad because a small burn could weaken the rope substantially. Ultra tech, on the other hand, gets most of the strength from the core. Tucked in the core, looking just like new, untouched by abrasion.

I get months of use out a tress cord, so the buck and a half extra does not bother me, not as much as climbing on cheap cord anyway.

I also question how a VT tied with such thick rope would work.

 

[Tim Gardner]

JPS,

What color is that 5/16" Stable Braid? I use a 5/16" double braid that is coated and I believe it is made by Samson but I am not sure. The rope has been stored in my closet for about 7 years. It was red when I bought it new.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

3 strand was something that i tried after noticing it was cheaper in the catalog for tails, used in lanyards, easiest to home splice. then a Sherrill splicer echoed my observations of it having distinct gripping/release properties as a tail gripping a braided host, also longer life.

As i have tried to imagine the contact area inside the mating of the friction hitch to the host line, eye see it as more akin to one of your cords than a piece of 16strand. Insamuch,as the braided line is a single 1/2" tube tracing around gripping the host with it's full girth in the footprint of it's contact. While i think that the 3strand would just have a footprint of contact on the host of the smaller individual strands of it's 3, not the full tube of it's combined diameter. Whereby, you have so much force expressed, if it is expressed through smaller footprints in the same lacing, it will have higher 'psi' than a larger line.

i've played with the VT some, like the chineese finger puzzle imagery; but ended up back at 3/1 distel; finding a similar chineese finger puzzle gripping action, and less slack to play out before knot tender is fully actuated. i have found that a 3/1distel makes a nice friction hitch on an adjustable lanyard(the first way Tom suggested i use a distel) also, as i can adjust it with one hand; which folds back into confi-dense(!) with it adjusting up with knot tender easily in climbing.

 

[Stumper]

Spydy, Wellington makes a couple of 3 strands which have polyolefin cores covered by polyester fibers. I have considered trying them for tress cords but am a little unsure about how well insulated the core fibers are. I have some of the 3/8' Hi Power which is a lightweight utility rope with a really nice hand. Karl Kuemmerling sells a 1/2" combo 3 strand as economy climbing line which I believe is Wellington Poly-Plus (but I'm not positive).

For those who are curious My experience matches Ken's. 3 strand makes really GOOD tress cords. Easy to splice, long wearing, and cheap.

Mike, 3 strand isn't just so "80's" it is positively B.C..

 

[NickfromWI]

slow down!!!

Wow brian, you must be flying out of those trees if you went through a tenex sling in 3 or 4 days. I got a month or two out of mine!
TreeSpyder, the filler strands you are talking about....the polyolefin...I wasn't aware that they are at the surface of the 3 strand safety blue. I'll take a closer look tonight.
Mike- how long after your burn through the cover of the ultratech do you keep using a tress cord? And for those of you using T-900 or similar....same question?
Again, I gotta stick with Brian on this one. A polyester on polyester double-braid is a very strong but affordable alternative. Maybe the Yale ULS (Ultralow stretch) would be a good option.
You just don't need such extraordinary strength in a friction hitch. Why stop at 10,000....there's ropes with 16,000lb strength at 3/8". Wouldn't that be safer?
Maybe to often I focus on the fact that tree-climbing is a job and the major purpose is to make money and pay bills. With that in mind, I don't care to spend a few extra dollars for unneeded strength.

Ok, you all have a fun day.

love
nick

 

[Stumper]

Er....Nick, What Ken was saying is that the pololefin is on the inside of the strands.
I agree that extreme strength isn't needed in a tress cord. If the cord is greater than 2700 lb tensile the 2 legs will exceed ANSI requirements. I'm using 3,275 rated rope for my tress cords which puts my hitch cord on a par with my climbing line-what more do I need? Of course more is fine and even welcome but not something to worry about .

 

[NickfromWI]

Polyolefin

"...In the 3 strands (Plain and HyVee), these fibres would be in a position to weaken the heat tloerance and line, so they are omitted. In the 16 strand pair of safety blues (Once again,Plain and HyVee), the weaker (cheaper and lighter)less heat tolerant fibres, are packaged in the center strands..."

Stumper-
It sounds like he's implying that in 3strand is on the outside, thus rendering less tolerant to heat. If the polyolefin is inside the strands on the 3 strand, how does that make it less heat tolerant?

Sorry if I'm being a punk.

love
nick

 

[treeclimber165]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
I like Ultra Tech. Picked some up at TCI for $1.15 per foot. If you don't burn out of the tree, it'll last a lot longer. It also doesn't have the spectra in it so it's got a very high heat resistant core, and a slightly looser polyester cover than the t-900.

Mike,
Take a look at the specs on this Samson XLS. It has the same cover as the Ultra Tech, 3200# rating.

http://www.samsonrope.com/home/recmarine/de_prr_xls.cfm#

Sta-Set
http://www.neropes.com/techdata/sta-set.htm

I'm thinking that the Sta-Set and XLS are better suited ropes for friction hitches than T-900 and Ultra Tech. Cost should be less than 50 cents per foot as opposed to $1.15-$2.59 per foot (Sherrill sells 51" of Ultra Tech for $11).

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Re: Sta Set

Originally posted by NickfromWI
do people tend to replace the t-900 slings when they wear through the cover? if not, how long are all of you keeping them after you DO wear through the cover?

Yes. Right away.

Originally posted by NickfromWI
You just don't need such extraordinary strength in a friction hitch. Why stop at 10,000....there's ropes with 16,000lb strength at 3/8".

I got to thinking about this some time ago. I was using some cheap polyester cord. So I set up a pull test. In fact, there is someone doing some research dropping loads on different configurations of climbing systems, at least that's what I heard. Anyway, the cheap cord did not fair too well in my unscientific test.
In typical climbing, where the climber is putting 100 lb.s on the cord, it doesn't much matter which cord one uses. You need to worry about the extraodinary circumstances. For example, what if you climbed up, tied in, then moved to another branch, safetyed in, and the branch you safteyed to breaks off. Now you and the limb, lets say it weighs 3000 lbs, free fall 8 feet. This would case a huge dynamic load. The load will likely start to slide.
In this unlikely event, the buck fifty might be worth it.
My point being that a tress cord slides at around 1000 lbs, and sliding with a 1000 lbs of friction causes lots of abrasion and heat. It's not a one time static load. You can't just use average minimum breaking strength to determine the safty factor.
Diameter, abrasion resistance, suppleness, knot handling, heat resistance, color, wether or not the rope was recommended by the manufacturer as a tress cord, and more, all play a roll in my choice.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

"The safety blue family of lines is divided on this. In the 3 strands (Plain and HyVee), these fibres would be in a position to weaken the heat tolerance and line, so they are omitted. "

Unless they've changed, the 3 strand safety bluz do not have the polyolefin fibres, but the sister products of their 16 strands do; but in the 16 strands, these weaker fibres are the filler that doesn't really effect the strength, just keeps the line from flattening out (especially around curves) thereby maintaining strength by maintaining shape (very important to all ropes) and concentration of fibres per inch. Also being buried inside, keeps the heat off them. ProMaster (Samson) speaks of the polyester fibres wrapping the polyolefin, but the tracer itself (that is of these stiffer fibres) lies on top as it threads through at some points; showing how these fibres (as MM points out) run to surface and back in.

Eye-splicing 3strand with these stiffer fibres correctly is very difficult, in that they don't lay flat(they stay stiff and curly), but you can make very seviceable splices anyway, in fact easier. But by the 'book' (Toss of course!), you would want to ribbon out each of the 3 strands; getting them to a ribbon rather than a round bundle of fibres is important for maximum strength and security in the lacing. For, a flat ribbon of strand lacing back through the host to make the splice A)makes a more sleek, compact splice that disturbs the line less (strength) and B)a flat ribbon tracing through the line provides more gripping area (security). But those are maximizing tweaks and understandings, i have used ProMaster(Samson) with no problems, save not being able to reach this perfection in manufacture of tails, lanyards etc. The eye splice is as close to the perfect knot (save it's permanancy), so the observations of properly aligned, least line disturbance, maximum gripping power are princi-pals to carry and hold into making all other knots (i think), as you try to hold them to their highest standards as you set them, drawing them to be as close to the 'perfect' knot as possible.

These polyolefin fibres are the stiffer, more transluscent fibres that break easier and can make ArborPlex and ArborPlus a lil ruffer on your hands with age/use. Take them out and insert polyester/nylon in their place makes stronger, more heat tolerant line. IMH,AO ! Like going from Arbor Plex @5400 to TrueBlue@7300, both are Samson 12 strand, polyester.

i prefer SafetyBlue 3strand HyVee, for strength, composition, reputation and color. The color not only helps in line id in the finished product, but also helps me in making the splice as the color only runs through one of the strands(as in other 'tracer' lines), and i make it my 'lead' strand, helping to keep things straight (at least for me).

At some point would it not be better for some limited slippage close to breaking point?

BC-Before Casey? Older than dirt?? But Mikeyyyyy......