Skip chains

[dnyelator]

I've read alot of posts (a couple hours just today) on here about filing chains down to 0 - 10 degrees for milling lumber. I know alot of you buy stuff from Baileys. I inquired with them about a few loops for my MS390, but all they have is Oregon 75CJ that is 15 degree. I've also read here and other places online to never run more than 10 degree. So why don't they sell a 10 degree chain? My second question is how hard are these to sharpen? It says they are very hard to sharpen and it calls for a double bevel file. I'm pretty new to this. We've sawn a couple hundred board foot, but want to get a little more serious. So should I buy this 75CJ stuff and then file it back to 10 degrees even though it says it's hard to sharpen? BTW, I'm running a 36RSLFK84 Stihl chain right now that's been great until it went dull. I paid to have it sharpened and it only lasted about 1/4 the time and is dull again. I can't seem to find this chain anywhere online, but I understand Stihl doesnt sell online.

 

[BobL]

I've read alot of posts (a couple hours just today) on here about filing chains down to 0 - 10 degrees for milling lumber. I know alot of you buy stuff from Baileys. I inquired with them about a few loops for my MS390, but all they have is Oregon 75CJ that is 15 degree. I've also read here and other places online to never run more than 10 degree. So why don't they sell a 10 degree chain? My second question is how hard are these to sharpen? It says they are very hard to sharpen and it calls for a double bevel file. I'm pretty new to this. We've sawn a couple hundred board foot, but want to get a little more serious. So should I buy this 75CJ stuff and then file it back to 10 degrees even though it says it's hard to sharpen? BTW, I'm running a 36RSLFK84 Stihl chain right now that's been great until it went dull. I paid to have it sharpened and it only lasted about 1/4 the time and is dull again. I can't seem to find this chain anywhere online, but I understand Stihl doesnt sell online.

75CJ is what is called square ground chain. When sharp it cuts VERY fast but goes blunt quicker than chisel and semi chisel. Overall it works well in clean softwood but is less effective in hard and dirty woods unless you are prepared to sharpen more often.

Square ground chain is harder to file (who has been filing your chains now?) and you do near a double bevel or trapezoidal cross section file and doing it by hand alone without any guides is very difficult.

I can do it freehand but I wish I had this modified Oregon file guide I eventually complete last year .

One way to take any 15º chain back to 10º is to just do it over 3- 4 successive sharpenings. It's not necessary to do it in one hit.

If you have limited experience in sharpening chain I would stick to round ground chisel chain and file it to 10º top plate angle.

 

[LAndrews]

While my thoughts tend to go against the grain of much of the wisdom on this board...this is my experience with my first handful of tries. All cuts are in American Chestnut that's been dead a few years and most of the bark is gone. Nice hardwood, but not too hard.

The saw came with a wore-out old Stihl chain that left huge scallops in the wood. I think most of that's from the worn-out bar that was with the saw. Knew it wasn't right so I sought out help here. (thanks again!)

I recently tried the Stihl RSLFK chain also (with a new Husky bar) and had good results with it. I ran this skip chain until some newer stuff came in and found that the wear was very good, the wood surface is pretty good and cutting speed was quite fast. This chain is a 050 gauge and 3/8 pitch. There was noticeable 'grabbing' though - occasionally something would grab and slow the motor down significantly. Cutter angles are about 12 degrees from the factory, if my protractor and ruler can be trusted. Looks like this chain needs square files but I haven't looked into it too well yet.

Today I got the chance to try a couple new options since I finally got another .404/.063 bar - an Oregon this time. (suspect they're the same thing)

First, the Oregon 27R full comp chains that I got from Madsen's. Their website calls out Oregon 72RD for ripping, but they sent Oregon 27R. <shrug> It worked okay, but left a rougher surface on the wood. Grabbing was completely gone and the chips were a lot smaller. Wear was good, but a little quicker than the Stihl chain. Cutting speed was ok but seemed slow and I had some trouble with bogging that could be due to anything. Cutters look like a regular file will do fine and probably easy to sharpen.

Finally, I tried one of the Woodsman Pro 43RP (404/063) ripping chains from Baileys. Only made one cut with this chain so I can't speak to the wear. Wood surface was probably the roughest of all of the new chains I've tried, but the saw ran smooth as glass - no grabbing at all and no bogging either. Cutting speed was a little slow, not bad. This one also looks easy to sharpen.

I'm kind of wondering if the .404 chain just plain makes rougher cuts, but it's hard to say. I figured that the wider driver links would be more rigid.

Maybe I'll take some pics and start a new thread...

 

[BlueRider]

While my thoughts tend to go against the grain of much of the wisdom on this board...this is my experience with my first handful of tries. All cuts are in American Chestnut that's been dead a few years and most of the bark is gone. Nice hardwood, but not too hard.

The saw came with a wore-out old Stihl chain that left huge scallops in the wood. I think most of that's from the worn-out bar that was with the saw. Knew it wasn't right so I sought out help here. (thanks again!)

I recently tried the Stihl RSLFK chain also (with a new Husky bar) and had good results with it. I ran this skip chain until some newer stuff came in and found that the wear was very good, the wood surface is pretty good and cutting speed was quite fast. This chain is a 050 gauge and 3/8 pitch. There was noticeable 'grabbing' though - occasionally something would grab and slow the motor down significantly. Cutter angles are about 12 degrees from the factory, if my protractor and ruler can be trusted. Looks like this chain needs square files but I haven't looked into it too well yet.

Today I got the chance to try a couple new options since I finally got another .404/.063 bar - an Oregon this time. (suspect they're the same thing)

First, the Oregon 27R full comp chains that I got from Madsen's. Their website calls out Oregon 72RD for ripping, but they sent Oregon 27R. <shrug> It worked okay, but left a rougher surface on the wood. Grabbing was completely gone and the chips were a lot smaller. Wear was good, but a little quicker than the Stihl chain. Cutting speed was ok but seemed slow and I had some trouble with bogging that could be due to anything. Cutters look like a regular file will do fine and probably easy to sharpen.

Finally, I tried one of the Woodsman Pro 43RP (404/063) ripping chains from Baileys. Only made one cut with this chain so I can't speak to the wear. Wood surface was probably the roughest of all of the new chains I've tried, but the saw ran smooth as glass - no grabbing at all and no bogging either. Cutting speed was a little slow, not bad. This one also looks easy to sharpen.

I'm kind of wondering if the .404 chain just plain makes rougher cuts, but it's hard to say. I figured that the wider driver links would be more rigid.

Maybe I'll take some pics and start a new thread...

You're comparing apples to bannanas. tooth angle, square vs round full comp vs skip and 3/8 vs .404. All affect cutting speed if you want an objective comparison change one at a time.

cutting standing dead logs without bark is also a different demand on a chain. it will favor a square ground tooth.

 

[BobL]

It would help if people wrote with a few more details than just a stream of consciousness

While my thoughts tend to go against the grain of much of the wisdom on this board...this is my experience with my first handful of tries. All cuts are in American Chestnut that's been dead a few years and most of the bark is gone. Nice hardwood, but not too hard.

The saw came with a wore-out old Stihl chain

What sort of chain was this? If its regular 25-30º or more it will scallop the wood

. . . . . .that left huge scallops in the wood. I think most of that's from the worn-out bar that was with the saw. Knew it wasn't right so I sought out help here. (thanks again!)

I recently tried the Stihl RSLFK chain also (with a new Husky bar) and had good results with it. I ran this skip chain until some newer stuff came in and found that the wear was very good, the wood surface is pretty good and cutting speed was quite fast.

Compared to what?

This chain is a 050 gauge and 3/8 pitch. There was noticeable 'grabbing' though - occasionally something would grab and slow the motor down significantly. Cutter angles are about 12 degrees from the factory, if my protractor and ruler can be trusted. Looks like this chain needs square files but I haven't looked into it too well yet.

Either it does or it doesn't need square files, haven't you sharpened it yet? How can you judge wear if you haven't?

Today I got the chance to try a couple new options since I finally got another .404/.063 bar - an Oregon this time. (suspect they're the same thing)

First, the Oregon 27R full comp chains that I got from Madsen's. Their website calls out Oregon 72RD for ripping, but they sent Oregon 27R. <shrug> It worked okay, but left a rougher surface on the wood. Grabbing was completely gone and the chips were a lot smaller. Wear was good, but a little quicker than the Stihl chain. Cutting speed was ok but seemed slow and I had some trouble with bogging that could be due to anything. Cutters look like a regular file will do fine and probably easy to sharpen.

You can't really judge wear on one type of tree on one day ? BTW Regular chain will always give a rougher finish - it digs sideways into the wood which is consistent with the bogging down.

Finally, I tried one of the Woodsman Pro 43RP (404/063) ripping chains from Baileys. Only made one cut with this chain so I can't speak to the wear. Wood surface was probably the roughest of all of the new chains I've tried, but the saw ran smooth as glass - no grabbing at all and no bogging either. Cutting speed was a little slow, not bad. This one also looks easy to sharpen.

I'm kind of wondering if the .404 chain just plain makes rougher cuts, but it's hard to say. I figured that the wider driver links would be more rigid.

If it is filed correctly it should be OK, if the rakers are a bit over depth that can roughen the wood but that wouldn't be consistent with it running smoothly.

 

[dnyelator]

OK folks, I posted the original post, and while I appreciate the attempt at feedback, I'm even more confused now.

BobL - so most of what we are milling is Elm, Oak, Walnut and Ash. It almost always has the bark on it. Sometimes I'm sure it has dirt mixed in that I think may be dulling our square chisel faster than I'd like. So what would you recommend I buy to use on my MS390 and our homemade sawmill? You mentioned square groove being hard to file, I don't care if its square or round, but I'd like to be able to sharpen it myself. I've tried it a few times on my old crosscut chainsaw with pretty good success, but now I want to perfect sharpening if I can. Can I assume I'd still need a skip chain with a 10 degree angle and if so, can you or someone please recommend one or two that you believe would be suited for this size saw? Brand doesn't matter, I just want something reliable I can sharpen when I need to without being an "expert". Thanks everyone, I appreciate your help very much. This site is amazing.

Dale

 

[LAndrews]

Well...my most humble apologies for trying to be helpful...

What sort of chain was this? If its regular 25-30º or more it will scallop the wood.

Guilty as charged. I don't know what kind of chain it is except that it's a Stihl that's nickel plated and nearly gone. Bar was worse - at some points the 063 measures past 090.

Compared to what?.

The two following chains. I'm trying to figure out a fair test to quantify the surface roughness, but it doesn't seem like a profilometer is going to take this much Z movement. Don't think that pics will do justice and won't produce quantitative data.

Either it does or it doesn't need square files, haven't you sharpened it yet? How can you judge wear if you haven't? .

It's a cheezy way to 'measure' wear, but I counted the number of cuts I could make until the chain required more force to get the saw to cut. Once it 'went', I just replaced the chain. One nice thing about having a bunch of new ones sitting there.

You can't really judge wear on one type of tree on one day ? BTW Regular chain will always give a rougher finish - it digs sideways into the wood which is consistent with the bogging down..

Probably true, I dono. It could have also been low on fuel. I wasn't paying close attention. <shrug>

Did have a good bit of fun with the CSM though, and ain't that the point?

If it is filed correctly it should be OK, if the rakers are a bit over depth that can roughen the wood but that wouldn't be consistent with it running smoothly.

The Stihl RSFLK definitely needs a square file - says so right on the package now that I look at it. That was the only 32" chain I could find in town with even close to the right tooth angle, so I bought it and the other stuff for the conversion.

The others look like they'll take round files. Quite honestly, I haven't gotten to where I'm concerned about filing yet as I still have a couple new chains waiting to be used.

Take care guys.

 

[BobL]

OK folks, I posted the original post, and while I appreciate the attempt at feedback, I'm even more confused now.

BobL - so most of what we are milling is Elm, Oak, Walnut and Ash. It almost always has the bark on it. Sometimes I'm sure it has dirt mixed in that I think may be dulling our square chisel faster than I'd like. So what would you recommend I buy to use on my MS390 and our homemade sawmill? You mentioned square groove being hard to file, I don't care if its square or round, but I'd like to be able to sharpen it myself. I've tried it a few times on my old crosscut chainsaw with pretty good success, but now I want to perfect sharpening if I can. Can I assume I'd still need a skip chain with a 10 degree angle and if so, can you or someone please recommend one or two that you believe would be suited for this size saw? Brand doesn't matter, I just want something reliable I can sharpen when I need to without being an "expert". Thanks everyone, I appreciate your help very much. This site is amazing.

Dale

One of the reasons I have come out and say - this is what you should use - is because I don't know your trees, Elm - Oak - Ash are exotic species here and I'll be luck to mill one of these in my lifetime. So all I can suggest are some general principles that pretty well work anywhere. I'll have to leave it to others that know these trees to recommend.

1) Dirt and square ground are not a recommended combo unless you want to sharpen lots in the field or by a heap of loops and constantly swap them over. So first recommendation is round ground over square ground

2) If there is dirt anywhere near the logs I would then recommend semi-chisel over full chisel.

3) I've yet to be impressed by skip chain mainly because in the very hard wood I cut, it just goes blunt too quickly compared to regular chain but my guess is skip will be fine for what you are doing.

3) 10º top plate angle- yep I'd recommend that.

4) Brand - I Stihl, GB/Carlton and Oregon. The first two are pretty much the same but Oregon is still a reliable brand.

So based on general principles
- semi chisel
- skip ?
- 10º top plate
- any common brand

But don't just take my word for this, anyone who has actually milled these species has to have a higher authority than I.

 

[Brmorgan]

From all my reading here, the general consensus seems to be that square ground, full-chisel chain is less than ideal for milling - sure, that first cut or two might be noticeably faster than round ground chain, but it'll dull faster and take longer to sharpen. It's a good choice for working with clean cants where the bark has been slabbed off already.

You didn't say what length of bar you're using, but if you're going to get "more serious" about milling and don't want to get a bigger saw, I'd consider switching to an .050 gauge bar. That will allow you to run a lighter chain with less load on the engine. You could use regular 3/8" .050 ripping chain such as the WoodlandPro 30RP at Bailey's for heavier work in bark and dirty wood, and switch to the Low Profile version 30LR for work with clean pieces, as it'll cut faster. If you are using a fairly long bar and need skip chain, then you might be stuck modifying a regular skip chain to milling specs. Keep in mind that a skip chain will create a noticeably rougher cut. I've found that with my saws though, the low profile chain has about the same effect on engine performance as regular profile skip chain, at least on shorter bars. I run Oregon 91VX re-filed to 10° on a 25" bar on my 660 for cutting boards off of cants, and it cuts very fast and smooth. Noticeably faster and smoother, in fact, than the bucking loop of regular profile, semi-skip @ 25° that I have for it.

I'm not sure if linking to Madsens is a no-no here, but if you go to their website and click on "Bars & Saw Chain" in the upper left, there is a page there with all the info you ever wanted to know about different chains and their specific benefits/uses. A lot of it is straight from Oregon.

Bob - Elm and Ash especially are on the harder side of what we have here in North America, but would probably compare to Balsa wood up against some of the stuff you deal with.

 

[BlueRider]

OK folks, I posted the original post, and while I appreciate the attempt at feedback, I'm even more confused now.

BobL - so most of what we are milling is Elm, Oak, Walnut and Ash. It almost always has the bark on it. Sometimes I'm sure it has dirt mixed in that I think may be dulling our square chisel faster than I'd like. So what would you recommend I buy to use on my MS390 and our homemade sawmill? You mentioned square groove being hard to file, I don't care if its square or round, but I'd like to be able to sharpen it myself. I've tried it a few times on my old crosscut chainsaw with pretty good success, but now I want to perfect sharpening if I can. Can I assume I'd still need a skip chain with a 10 degree angle and if so, can you or someone please recommend one or two that you believe would be suited for this size saw? Brand doesn't matter, I just want something reliable I can sharpen when I need to without being an "expert". Thanks everyone, I appreciate your help very much. This site is amazing.

Dale

It's hard to go wrong with a loop of Bailey's milling chain. I've been using it for 15 years, long before I found out about this site or them being a sponsor. When you order a loop go ahead and get a box of files and a handle for the files.

the sharpening part of your question is a whole thread by itself. I opt for free hand sharpening but used to use one of those jigs that clamps onto the bar and holds a file. I don't care for the dremel type sharpeners as it is almost impossible to keep the teeth consistent in height.

rock elm can be hard on chains because it encapsulates a fair amount of silica. you will develope sharpening skills if you mill much of it. It is great wood and worth the effort.

 

[dnyelator]

Now we're getting somewhere! Thanks everyone for those recent comments. For the person that asked what size bar, sorry i forgot that in my original post, it's a 24" bar. Like I said, still new to this, but I'm learning how to better ask my questions. Hopefully I'll be handing out advice one day instead of asking all the questions.

So one more question. I've read in a couple places now that you should never use skip chain that is over 10 degree. But the oregon chain on the Baileys site is 15 degree. I read that several manufacturers are going to this type of skip chain and that it's hard on your saw. The 390 I think is a pretty good saw, but I want to treat it right, so I wasn't convinced yet to pull the trigger on the Baileys chain.

Reading the Madsens site (thanks BRMorgan) it recommends against skip chain on bars less than 28". So maybe I'm back to full comp chain with a 10 degree angle, if I can find that. I never thought that chosing chain could be so difficult! But I'm wanting to do it right, get a few chains and get to work, but I just need the right choice before I buy 3 of the wrong kind (speaking from experience).

 

[BobL]

Now we're getting somewhere! Thanks everyone for those recent comments. For the person that asked what size bar, sorry i forgot that in my original post, it's a 24" bar. Like I said, still new to this, but I'm learning how to better ask my questions. Hopefully I'll be handing out advice one day instead of asking all the questions.

We're all still learning, if we forget this, something will eventually go pear shaped.

So one more question. I've read in a couple places now that you should never use skip chain that is over 10 degree. But the oregon chain on the Baileys site is 15 degree. I read that several manufacturers are going to this type of skip chain and that it's hard on your saw. The 390 I think is a pretty good saw, but I want to treat it right, so I wasn't convinced yet to pull the trigger on the Baileys chain.

You can use skip chain at an angle up to 30º or so, it's just going to give you a rougher finish when milling and vibrate a bit more.

Reading the Madsens site (thanks BRMorgan) it recommends against skip chain on bars less than 28". So maybe I'm back to full comp chain with a 10 degree angle, if I can find that. I never thought that chosing chain could be so difficult! But I'm wanting to do it right, get a few chains and get to work, but I just need the right choice before I buy 3 of the wrong kind (speaking from experience).

Oh yearh, chain is a highly emotive subject (have we discussed bar oil recently ) The main idea about skip is improving chip clearance which is less of a problem below 28" but I see no problem running it down to cutting lengths/widths as long as you have 3 cutters in the cut.