min-maxing bar/chain combos for 36"-52"

[chunez]

I have been doing a deep dive on milling setups that meet the following criteria:
1) 36"-52"
2) "relatively" cheap
3) available in the US
4) already filed to 10 degrees (if you don't mind having to file to 10 degrees yourself this opens up many more chain options)
5) geared towards slightly underpowered saws relative to bar length (70-90cc)
6) can be adapted to Husky large mount

Every time I dig into this, I come up with a different answer but I just want to document my findings here in case it helps someone in the future.

Option 1:
36" Stihl ES 3/8 .050 bar + Stihl 63PMX 3/8LP .050 ripping chain (115DL confirmed if you don't want to drill the bar)
https://www.shforestrysupplies.com/...s-chainsaw-guide-bar-3-8-pitch-050-gauge.htmlhttps://www.baileysonline.com/stihl-63pmx-ripping-chain-per-drive-link.html110+75
$185

Option 2:
42" Stihl 3/8 .063 bar + Maya 3/8 .063 full skip ripping chain (~115DL? somebody check my math)
(must buy 3003-650-2539 tip to convert from .404 to 3/8)
https://www.shforestrysupplies.com/...s-chainsaw-guide-bar-404-pitch-063-gauge.htmlhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/384116551705https://www.whitesforestry.com/prod...-chisel-10-degree?_pos=4&_sid=c58fbacf9&_ss=r130+40+46=
$216

Option 3:
52" Forester .325 .063 bar + Granberg .325 .063 ripping chain (~180DL? somebody check my math)
(must buy ORT325B tip to convert from 3/8 to .325)
https://forestershop.com/forester-1...ain-saw-bar-husqvarna-52-inch-hv5263156w.htmlhttps://forestershop.com/1-rivet-tip-325-050063.htmlhttps://www.granberg.com/product/325-x-063-ripping-chain-pre-cut-chain/240+15+70
$325

Option 4 (violates rule 3 but included for completeness):
48" GB 3/8LP .050 bar + Stihl 63PMX 3/8LP .050 ripping chain (153DL)
https://www.chainsawbars.co.uk/prod...gle-slot-3-8-lo-pro-050-153-drive-links-copy/https://www.baileysonline.com/stihl-63pmx-ripping-chain-per-drive-link.html265+100
$365

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

I have been doing a deep dive on milling setups that meet the following criteria:
1) 36"-52"
2) "relatively" cheap
3) available in the US
4) already filed to 10 degrees (if you don't mind having to file to 10 degrees yourself this opens up many more chain options)
5) geared towards slightly underpowered saws relative to bar length (70-90cc)
6) can be adapted to Husky large mount

Every time I dig into this, I come up with a different answer but I just want to document my findings here in case it helps someone in the future.

Isn't Whites Forestry an Australian outfit that sells the Maya chain? So option 2 not quite to criteria as Option 4 isn't either. I guess you can get the same ripping full skip in Archer through Whites too, but Archer in the US doesn't seem to carry it, just the .404 .063 42" full skip ripping chain I have on my big Stihl. Option 1 isn't technically a match, a standard 3/8 nose sprocket running 3/8LP, we've been over this, you can run it if you want to but will wear your sprockets out faster. So option 3 really the only completely valid one per your criteria, and my feeling is that's way too much money for a Forester bar.

I've been going over the same puzzle in looking for something between my 42 and 72" bars, and it's a weak set of offerings in the affordable range. Option 2 is better with the Oregon 42" 3/8 .063 bar in D009 or D025 mount, whichever you want, $100 on Amazon. A good chain out of the box doesn't really exist available in the US for what you want. Much more effective for that saw power range would be buy any full comp ripping chain in 42" 3/8 .063 (Forester is cheapest at $26.88 Ebay) and grind off alternate tooth sets to create what I call "double skip". It's a halfway compromise between full comp and hyperskip, requires less power than full skip but just as clean to me. The grind has worked very well and smooth in limited use w .404 on 30" white oak. Easy non precision work, angle grinder w small cutoff wheel to chop the teeth off or just grind down all the teeth and rakers you don't want on a coarse grinding wheel. For $130 and some labor you have likely the best option in 42".

I'm making up 36" lo pro ripping Archer loops from a 25' roll for less than $25 apiece. They aren't selling it in pre-made loops. Not going to spend $75 on a 63PMX loop from Baileys, though they are the only place in US that carries it and it's the best LP chain there is and actually rated up to 36" unlike any other LP chain.

Given the poor offerings in the US for anything that doesn't require big saw power - chainsaw milling is technologically in the dark ages here as far as commercial offerings - the best bet in the 46-52" range is finding old American steel with sprocketless roller noses and doing whatever tail adapting is needed to make it fit your saw. Then customizing a double skip 3/8" .063 ripping chain to fit it (assuming the bar will almost certainly be .063).

 

[chunez]

Isn't Whites Forestry an Australian outfit that sells the Maya chain? So option 2 not quite to criteria as Option 4 isn't either. I guess you can get the same ripping full skip in Archer through Whites too, but Archer in the US doesn't seem to carry it, just the .404 .063 42" full skip ripping chain I have on my big Stihl. Option 1 isn't technically a match, a standard 3/8 nose sprocket running 3/8LP, we've been over this, you can run it if you want to but will wear your sprockets out faster. So option 3 really the only completely valid one per your criteria, and my feeling is that's way too much money for a Forester bar.

I've been going over the same puzzle in looking for something between my 42 and 72" bars, and it's a weak set of offerings in the affordable range. Option 2 is better with the Oregon 42" 3/8 .063 bar in D009 or D025 mount, whichever you want, $100 on Amazon. A good chain out of the box doesn't really exist available in the US for what you want. Much more effective for that saw power range would be buy any full comp ripping chain in 42" 3/8 .063 (Forester is cheapest at $26.88 Ebay) and grind off alternate tooth sets to create what I call "double skip". It's a halfway compromise between full comp and hyperskip, requires less power than full skip but just as clean to me. The grind has worked very well and smooth in limited use w .404 on 30" white oak. Easy non precision work, angle grinder w small cutoff wheel to chop the teeth off or just grind down all the teeth and rakers you don't want on a coarse grinding wheel. For $130 and some labor you have likely the best option in 42".

I'm making up 36" lo pro ripping Archer loops from a 25' roll for less than $25 apiece. They aren't selling it in pre-made loops. Not going to spend $75 on a 63PMX loop from Baileys, though they are the only place in US that carries it and it's the best LP chain there is and actually rated up to 36" unlike any other LP chain.

Given the poor offerings in the US for anything that doesn't require big saw power - chainsaw milling is technologically in the dark ages here as far as commercial offerings - the best bet in the 46-52" range is finding old American steel with sprocketless roller noses and doing whatever tail adapting is needed to make it fit your saw. Then customizing a double skip 3/8" .063 ripping chain to fit it (assuming the bar will almost certainly be .063).

Right on all accounts there, I thought Whites was in the US for some reason. And yes, you know how much I like my Stihl bars so that was me subconsciously ignoring the Oregon offering in favor of the Stihl haha. How do you like the archer stuff? I thought I read somewhere it had a tendency to break easier than the 63PMX?

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Right on all accounts there, I thought Whites was in the US for some reason. And yes, you know how much I like my Stihl bars so that was me subconsciously ignoring the Oregon offering in favor of the Stihl haha. How do you like the archer stuff? I thought I read somewhere it had a tendency to break easier than the 63PMX?

Everything has a tendency to break easier than PMX, thus no manufacturer will rate their chain for use above 20" and none will sell ready made loops in the US above that size. It becomes a crapshoot then, figuring how just how strong any of the other offerings like Archer are. I'm just getting started with it, as I just got a breaker and spinner to make loops, so can't tell you yet. Was using the in house Panther brand before from Chainsawbars and fairly happy with that though did eventually manage to break two of my three 36" loops. But that was pushing a little too hard with not sharp enough chain on really hard 28-30" red oak.

I've started working on formulas to judge what chains will work efficiently on given log sizes. Inexact science, but based on Lightning's observation that past 18-20 cutters engaged sees significant slowdown in performance on any given log - he's observed it w 3/8", my experience w 3/8" lo pro confirmed it. Too much chip clogging, too much load. What I've come up with is that for lo pro a max of between 14-15 cutters engaged is your sweet spot for least power required and best finish and still clearing chips well. With 3/8 lo pro, full comp is an average of teeth every 1.4". With 3/8", it's every 1.5". With 3/8" full skip, it's 2.25". This translates to a happy max width log of roughly about 20" with 3/8LP full comp. Now I've been able to mill pretty well in the 20-30" range with full comp 3/8LP with a 64cc saw with sharp chain, but past 25" significantly increases chances of breaking chain from too much cutter load. And though the 20-25" range it's been impressive in something as ridiculously hard as live oak still with just a 64cc saw, it's 15-20" slabs where full comp lo pro has really shined at blazing speeds with ultra smooth finish.

Anyway, if we halve the teeth number with a double skip grind, that should allow me to happily use lo pro up to 40" slabs without stressing the chain too badly as long as I don't bind it up anywhere. So I would only use the GB lo pro 48" bar up to its max potential if I could run double skip on it. I've seen videos of it mill 40" oak with full comp with a 660, but it's inefficient in doing so and requires a very light touch w that powerful a saw. Now as far as regular 3/8, I have less experience with it. 14-15 cutters engaged is still probably a good max for it for best efficiency in 70-90cc saws, though where you can get away with the 70cc range with lo pro, you want more the 80-90cc range for 3/8". That translates out to a 32" slab using full skip, and about a 43" slab using double skip. This isn't anything about max capacity, this is just my notion of where saws are milling at their best speeds without a lot of load on them and moving chips well. Clearly with 90-100 cc saws you can easily engage 20 cutters at a time - 30" slabs in regular full comp 3/8", but you won't be moving chips as well as you could w skip or a larger chain like. 404. The power hounds claim full comp is the best to any size and their saws run it fine, but they miss the fact that due to chip clogging and uneven tooth contact, only 1 of their 2 full comp teeth at best is making contact in big slabs anyway. That's why hyperskip (1/4 as many teeth as full comp) works just fine. But hyperskip really only was meant for mega slabs in Lucas Mills, "double skip" makes far more sense in regular chainsaw mills for 35-60" slabs. I feel like lo pro full comp up to 20" consistent width slabs is great, lo pro skip in 20-30", and lo pro double skip above 30" is ideal. I'd say roughly the same holds true for 3/8", with the qualifier that I'd use min 79cc with 3/8".

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Finding affordable old sprocketless roller nose big bars is a challenge - you pretty much need to be in timber country picking through old barns to stand a chance. Everything on Ebay is being sold at collectors' prices. Racing saw folks have been buying up every roller nose tip and just the tips are crazy prices now. Plus there's next to no .050 bars over 42". So round and round I go, and I keep coming back to even at $250 or whatever it is, the GB 48" lo pro bar is pretty compelling with the 14mm Stihl mount that can be adapted down to D025 and D009. But I really would prefer a 48-52" bar I could run lo pro and normal 3/8 on cause I'd likely want to run 3/8 more often at that length. Maybe if I was only running lo pro on it on rare occasion, just get a 3/8 sprocket nose bar and not worry about it, but would still have to be .050 which is near impossible to find but for a high price 50" Cannon.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Interesting discovery- a 20” loop i got on Ebay of Laser brand 3/8LP ripping chain for $25 awhile back, I hadn’t noticed it was Granberg grind lo pro. Worked great the few times I used it so far. A place called Cutters Choice is the only place to sell it, they have a website. Can order by the link at .29/dl. Curious to try it in big loops because the Granberg grind should be lower load than regular full comp lo pro, act a little more like skip. Light years better looking chain than Woodland Pro 3/8lp at same price - cheapest lo pro loops on market. Not that cheap in rolls though - they want $129 for 25’. You can only get 5 loops of 72dl out of that with 50dl left over, so they’re basically not charging to make loops. Closer look reveals same sloppy grind of half width scoring teeth that seems to plague Granberg chain. Some is third width some is half width. Almost better off just getting rid of them and making it more consistent double skip.

 

[chunez]

https://loggerchain.net/products/1-...poulan-wild-thing?_pos=1&_sid=9426ac6dc&_ss=r
This is what I have been using to spin up my own skiptooth LP. Held up well on 24” for milling over the course of a year on my 445 and 28” for a few larger cuts. Didn’t bother calculating cost but I’m sure it’s expensive

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

That's one way to do it, hadn't occurred to me, but hadn't had capacity to spin up chains til recently. I keep seeing people having terrible washboarding with new 3/8" Granberg chain, and I can never tell if it's bar/gauge mismatch or defective chain. And I don't know if it's inconsistency in the widths of the scoring cutters, inconsistent grinding overall of the chain, or what it is that's causing it. But has made me a little wary of the Granberg grind. So don't know what to think of Laser's version of it in lo pro and the inconsistency I can see in it. Extra headache to sharpen too. Best probably to avoid it. At .19/dl for Archer, it's still cheaper for me to do double skip experiments with Archer. Chainsawbars is clearing out all their old Panther lo pro reels at BOGO pricing to only carry the Panther Plus chain with marks on the top plate, and I'm tempted to get a pair of 100' reels but that's $540 I don't have right now. That would end up being .17-.18/dl. I do like the tooth shape a bit better on the Panther than the Archer, the Panther teeth are narrower, but no idea if the Panther is any stronger than the Archer. Panther does make full skip lo pro but they already sold out of the BOGO reels.

 

[muddy42]

I have been doing a deep dive on milling setups that meet the following criteria:
1) 36"-52"
2) "relatively" cheap
3) available in the US
4) already filed to 10 degrees (if you don't mind having to file to 10 degrees yourself this opens up many more chain options)
5) geared towards slightly underpowered saws relative to bar length (70-90cc)
6) can be adapted to Husky large mount

Every time I dig into this, I come up with a different answer but I just want to document my findings here in case it helps someone in the future.

Option 1:
36" Stihl ES 3/8 .050 bar + Stihl 63PMX 3/8LP .050 ripping chain (115DL confirmed if you don't want to drill the bar)
https://www.shforestrysupplies.com/...s-chainsaw-guide-bar-3-8-pitch-050-gauge.htmlhttps://www.baileysonline.com/stihl-63pmx-ripping-chain-per-drive-link.html110+75
$185

Option 2:
42" Stihl 3/8 .063 bar + Maya 3/8 .063 full skip ripping chain (~115DL? somebody check my math)
(must buy 3003-650-2539 tip to convert from .404 to 3/8)
https://www.shforestrysupplies.com/...s-chainsaw-guide-bar-404-pitch-063-gauge.htmlhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/384116551705https://www.whitesforestry.com/prod...-chisel-10-degree?_pos=4&_sid=c58fbacf9&_ss=r130+40+46=
$216

Option 3:
52" Forester .325 .063 bar + Granberg .325 .063 ripping chain (~180DL? somebody check my math)
(must buy ORT325B tip to convert from 3/8 to .325)
https://forestershop.com/forester-1...ain-saw-bar-husqvarna-52-inch-hv5263156w.htmlhttps://forestershop.com/1-rivet-tip-325-050063.htmlhttps://www.granberg.com/product/325-x-063-ripping-chain-pre-cut-chain/240+15+70
$325

Option 4 (violates rule 3 but included for completeness):
48" GB 3/8LP .050 bar + Stihl 63PMX 3/8LP .050 ripping chain (153DL)
https://www.chainsawbars.co.uk/prod...gle-slot-3-8-lo-pro-050-153-drive-links-copy/https://www.baileysonline.com/stihl-63pmx-ripping-chain-per-drive-link.html265+100
$365

Personally I think you are always going to be close to braking a 70-90 cc saw with a 50 inch chain.

I'd buy a dedicated 120 cc milling saw and a 50 something inch bar. You can mill anything with this setup and with that extra power it doesn't really matter what chain you use. If its for milling you can even get away with the older saws without a chain brake which are much cheaper.

Sorry to be contrarian, but I've tried to mill with a 70 cc saw, wasted a lot of money and wish I'd upgraded sooner.

 

[chunez]

Personally I think you are always going to be close to braking a 70-90 cc saw with a 50 inch chain.

I'd buy a dedicated 120 cc milling saw and a 50 something inch bar. You can mill anything with this setup and with that extra power it doesn't really matter what chain you use. If its for milling you can even get away with the older saws without a chain brake which are much cheaper.

Sorry to be contrarian, but I've tried to mill with a 70 cc saw, wasted a lot of money and wish I'd upgraded sooner.

Break it how? If the saw is underpowered it would just bog down wouldn’t it?

I agree if you are talking about standard chain, but running 3/8lp or 325 is where you start to be able to get away with it. Granted I am using an 86cc and ported 88cc saw so I can’t speak for a 70cc saw

 

[muddy42]

Break it how? If the saw is underpowered it would just bog down wouldn’t it?

I agree if you are talking about standard chain, but running 3/8lp or 325 is where you start to be able to get away with it. Granted I am using an 86cc and ported 88cc saw so I can’t speak for a 70cc saw

Its more subtle than just bogging down although that could melt the clutch. Its subtle also because you might be fine and get away with an underpowered saw - infrequent cuts, let the saw warm up/down, keep the chain sharp, don't force it. But its very easy to force the saw with a mill, causing excess engine load, overheating, running lean and eventually you get a melted piston and rings.

Personally if I was going to the expense of buying a 50+ inch bar/chain/mill, rather than always pushing the limits of a smaller saw, I'd get the peace of mind of a few extra CCs.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Personally if I was going to the expense of buying a 50+ inch bar/chain/mill, rather than always pushing the limits of a smaller saw, I'd get the peace of mind of a few extra CCs.

Like you said on another post, questions of max bar size for a given saw depend on a lot of elements. I think the mistake in the common advice that everyone needs a 100-120cc saw to use a 50" bar is that very few people have access to logs that are min 30" wide. If you're regularly milling huge 30-40" consistent width slabs, especially really dense hardwoods like white oak, pecan, or live oak, a 120cc saw or even a dual powerhead mill absolutely makes sense. But that's maybe one in a thousand people milling who are handling wood like that. Many people are just getting 50-52" bars for 40" wide crotch cuts in wood in the 20-30" range. It's only a foot or two of the slab they need it for.

I have a 121cc saw. I get tired of milling with it on wood that doesn't need it. With .404 chain I can't touch the finish I get with 3/8LP, nor the speed. So as far as I can push the limits of 3/8LP, I'd rather use it, and it's well suited to most everything I do in the 15-25" range. I have pushed my 64cc Makita with surprisingly little effort through all manner of logs so far w 3/8LP - 30" sycamore, 24-28" ash, 12-20" mesquite. I've never taxed the saw much because it has cut so much faster without bogging than larger chain on far bigger saws has for me. It has only become ineffective when the clearing abilities of the chain reach its limits - bar maxed out in 30" red oak - and the saw doesn't bog then, it just stops cutting worth a damn and breaks the chain if I force it. I beat on this drum a lot, but no one but those who use it have any idea how much faster and cleaner 3/8LP cuts w dramatically lower power requirements.

As chunez said, the point of this exercise is to figure out setups for smaller kerf more efficient chain. What you can do with 100cc with .404, you can do w 90cc with 3/8, and in the same wood you often need no more than 60-70cc in 3/8LP. (Though again like chunez I have my 36" 3/8LP bar on an 87cc saw now so the saw is never taxed in the least.) It's not for everyone and it's not for huge log milling. But for the milling most people do, with only brief moments of need for a 50" bar for flares in the wood, w 3/8LP you really can get away with a lot less power than has been traditionally accepted for using 3/8 and .404 chain, without much risk of smoking your saw. The limiting thing about 3/8LP which again makes it not for everyone is that you will never be able to tax your saw badly by forcing it or bogging it down. The chain will break if you do. I'm fine with that - it forces me to keep my chain sharp and the milling easy.

 

[muddy42]

Yes I get what your saying, definitely shades on grey here. Yes I do mill a lot of hard 30 inch wide oak, often with branches and knotty, burly bits that were not easy to tackle with low pro ripping chain. Its clear from your name that you are a lo pro fan, that's fine, each to their own, but its best to make informed choices before spending too much money. Personally I have tried it and moved up. My 76cc saw is now an excellent partner saw for getting the trunk ready for the mill. I run a 20 inch bar in this saw, so you can see that I always like more power to bar length.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

As BobL said something to the effect of once, the best chain/bar/setup is what works best for you. He got me interested on the path to lo pro because he noted extreme hardwoods like mesquite, comparable to Aussie hardwoods, in smaller sizes - below 25" - were probably better milled by me w narrower kerf chain on higher speed saws rather than .404 on my 880. You apply woodworking experience to this and it’s easy to see. To use a full 1/8” kerf circular saw blade in a 6” deep cut you need bare minimum of 5hp in a 16” table saw. With a thin kerf blade you need a lot less, thus the surprising things you can manage with a terribly underpowered 15 amp Makita 16" beam saw. I honestly think the only way to mill efficient speeds on 30”+ hardwood logs w 3/8" or .404 chain is with way more power than a 121cc chainsaw. No single large saw is going to do the job very fast trying to push all that chain through hardwood. Duals are probably adequate. 25hp Lucas Mills do the job well. Dramatic increases in wood hardness cause exponential more hp needs with a given chain - you note that about knotty, burly bits.

But two ways to skin a cat - you can lessen those hp needs going to narrower kerf. You seem to think narrower kerf can't handle hardness when it's actually way more effective at cutting it, short of there being some weird wood fiber direction issues causing bind up of the bar. However, the limitation in larger applications w full comp lo pro is chip clearing, it gets clogged with chips and doesn't cut. But if you start getting creative and employ "double skip" chain - grind off every 3rd and 4th cutter - you can get around this issue a lot. I think double skip makes 3/8" and .404 way more effective as well. Real innovators like BobL drove this forum for a long time because he was always looking for a better way of milling. Just trying to keep innovation going, and not accept that everything has been settled. I think that was chunez' intent too w this thread. Milling forum has been fairly lifeless for awhile due to lack of new ideas, while there's been a lot going on in European and UK milling in that time. Five years ago it was accepted wisdom you couldn't really mill with lo pro beyond a 24" bar and a 60cc saw. Now people are milling with with 660's and 36" bars and 63PMX Stihl picco chain all across Europe. Small handful of Americans too.

 

[Lightning Performance]

Check on the lp for 540 two reels. I'll take one off your hands.

You haven't even tried a ten pin setup yet. I have one waiting for the big saws. Several bar lengths to try it on but likely will do best on a 28" with full comp.

I could see an 80cc saw doing well on double skip lp with a 36" 050 setup.