Starting the biz!

[n3qdz]

I am getting all my ducks in a row to get a firewood business started. The days of a log splitter and humping are over for me. The ole bod just can't take it, besides ya never make any money or at least not that much with a splitter.

I'm a firm believer in the more ya touch the log the less money you make. I have a ton of questions. This is what I have so far. A log splitter saw and a lot of work. I want to give back the log splitter back to my brother and start from a new. I am looking into a PTO driven processor and a good size tractor. I have seen the firewood packaging bags (1/3 cord) size.

I have been looking into Apache,Timber Wolf and into Palax. The tractors have been John Deere, Kubota and Massey Ferguson. I want to have a conveyor and the bags to drop into. I do have to figure out how to deliver it (pallet jack) not sure. A friend of mine said look into a flatbed rollback....not sure what he meant.

I have to get a small business loan and a site to operate. Are their any government grants for starting up a small business. Their are several farms around with several spots to set up to rent space till get on my feet. One of the biggest is how to get the logs. One said to go to a local lumber yard and hookup with the logger or just buy the lumber yard scraps......not into buying scraps.

Marketing is no biggie I got a buddy that does that for a living. From what I gather the real money is in pre pack "romance" pak wood. Whew with all this dribble so far what am I missing what have I missed. From what I gather with all the stuff I have listed the start up is around 60k?

What is the typical payback how many weeks,months or years. My goal it 250 cord a year. Is that too low too high.....school me please!

 

[LadyToysDream]

Sales tax number, and a good insurance policy off top of my head here.

 

[LadyToysDream]

Talk to someone who does taxes, and can tell you how to set up your book keeping. Good to know what expenses you can take and the best way to track them from day one.

 

[ericjeeper]

I would be finding out where to get the logs

Before I ever worried about taxes and loans., Customers are easy to find.Log length wood is a different story all together.

 

[Husky137]

Before I ever worried about taxes and loans., Customers are easy to find.Log length wood is a different story all together.

What he said.

 

[cjcocn]

..... A friend of mine said look into a flatbed rollback....not sure what he meant. .....

Tow truck companies use them. It's a 3 - 5 ton truck with a flatbed that "rolls back" until the back of the flatbed is resting on the ground. It allows the truck to then winch the disabled vehicle directly onto the flatbed. After the vehicle is winched onto the flatbed, the flatbed is then brought back up to travel mode.

As for the general concept, the other posters are correct - first find a good wood source. If you can find a reliable source then the particulars of that source will help you determine the business' feasibility. How much will the logs cost? Are there transport costs? How much volume can you access? For how many years? Are you guaranteed a certain volume or do you have to commit to a certain volume? Find out everything that you can about your potential wood source as that information will help you build the business plan.

HTH

 

[hickslawns]

In order to know your pay back time frame you will need to know your incremental costs. How much is your initial investment? $60k. How much is your insurance? How much is your fuel? Fuel consumption in quantity and cost to purchase fuel. Maintenance costs? Repairs? Cost of materials? Payroll? Payroll taxes? Workers' comp? Price to sell at is going to be determined by figuring all these costs, averaging them out and adding your acceptable profit margin. Probably forgetting half the stuff, but these are some costs you need to consider. It is not just the initial investment. It is the maintenance, fuel, and payroll, or what you are going to pay yourself. You also need to figure in replacement cost of the equipment. By the time it is paid for it might be worn out. At that point you could have been better off working part-time at another fire department one day a week or couple days a month. I am guessing by the EMT/FF at the bottom this is your full-time gig? Good luck making a go of it!

 

[n3qdz]

I think that is the hardest thing is to find a good supplier for logs. What are the costs of the log approx? What size dia. are typical. How much back stock should I keep un-split. I have always split green and let season is this the same thing with this?. I was also thinking of collecting the saw dust and selling that to the local wood pellet guy for his products.
One of the big questions is delivery. When you deliver it bagged how do you get it off the truck?

 

[n3qdz]

"Tow truck companies use them. It's a 3 - 5 ton truck with a flatbed that "rolls back" until the back of the flatbed is resting on the ground. It allows the truck to then winch the disabled vehicle directly onto the flatbed. After the vehicle is winched onto the flatbed, the flatbed is then brought back up to travel mode."

oh sorry I know what the roll back's are but how to use then in unloading the product.

 

[cjcocn]

"Tow truck companies use them. It's a 3 - 5 ton truck with a flatbed that "rolls back" until the back of the flatbed is resting on the ground. It allows the truck to then winch the disabled vehicle directly onto the flatbed. After the vehicle is winched onto the flatbed, the flatbed is then brought back up to travel mode."

oh sorry I know what the roll back's are but how to use then in unloading the product.

oh.



He might have meant that once you roll the deck back you will then be able to slide your wood off?

 

[cantoo]

Would a truck with a swival crane on it be better for small deliveries. Bins for the bundled wood could be lifted on and off at site easily. Sell firewood in the tote bags again easy to lift on and off.

 

[wdchuck]

Put forks on the front of the tractor, take it with you to offload the pallets of bag upped wood, drop the neat wood where they want it, deposit on the pallet so they don't burn it too, then load the tractor back up and go off to the next customer. Lots of work in one aspect, but the customer gets a neatly packaged product, and no heavy truck on their driveway/lawn.

A much faster method, depending on your customers needs, is to just use a one-ton pickup with a dumpbox, fill it with a loader or conveyor then backup on to the customers property, get the money, dump the pile, and leave.

Bundles are usually 1cu/ft.

Insurances, taxes, wood source....who will help if you get injured.

Processors work best with a particular range of diameters, too big and its hardly better than the splitter you have, too small, too crooked, often requires two people to operate.
If the tractor is running the processor, then how do you move material, a second tractor? Compare all the costs, over time, and work/material flow with a processor that is engine driven, and/or pto driven.

A good splitter, with log lift, adjustable 6-way, 4way wedge, table, and conveyor may be another way to look at it.

Look up other firewood outfits around you, if they have a processor, try to see how it all goes, ask them questions.
Another option, find out if there anyone does portable processing, they come in, setup, and process your 100cord pile of logs, or whatever, and then leave.

If you get equipment, things don't work out the way you planned, how desireable is what you bought for the resale market, what kind of losses can you afford if you have to liquidate quickly?


Lots of options, look at all of them.

 

[leon]

firewood

I am getting all my ducks in a row to get a firewood business started.

The days of a log splitter and humping are over for me. The ole bod just can't take it, besides ya never make any money or at least not that much with a splitter.

I'm a firm believer in the more ya touch the log the less money you make. I have a ton of questions. This is what I have so far. A log splitter saw and a lot of work. I want to give back the log splitter back to my brother and start from a new. I am looking into a PTO driven processor and a good size tractor. I have seen the firewood packaging bags (1/3 cord) size.

I have been looking into Apache,Timber Wolf and into Palax. The tractors have been John Deere, Kubota and Massey Ferguson. I want to have a conveyor and the bags to drop into. I do have to figure out how to deliver it (pallet jack) not sure. A friend of mine said look into a flatbed rollback....not sure what he meant.

I have to get a small business loan and a site to operate. Are their any government grants for starting up a small business. Their are several farms around with several spots to set up to rent space till get on my feet. One of the biggest is how to get the logs. One said to go to a local lumber yard and hookup with the logger or just buy the lumber yard scraps......not into buying scraps.

Marketing is no biggie I got a buddy that does that for a living. From what I gather the real money is in pre pack "romance" pak wood. Whew with all this dribble so far what am I missing what have I missed. From what I gather with all the stuff I have listed the start up is around 60k?

What is the typical payback how many weeks,months or years. My goal it 250cord a year. Is that too low too high.....school me please!

Marketing is not related to sales!


A good wood splitter is a good investment especially if you buy a unit with a log lift and table grate such as TW5-FC and a simple conveyor from a local farm equipment dealer to load from the log splitters table grate.

A Timber Wolf firewood processor is over $45,000.00 USD and a Kubota BX 7800 is over 14,500.00 so your cost estimate is very light.


Super sacks are fine but they hold water; a roll back truck is not a good idea for a pallet jack or a corner post hoist as you will have a more harrowing ride than paul reveere when the ramp is down.

And a roll back will limit tonnage carried as you will need to carry a tractor to move the bags of firewood with a pallet fork- possibly a total of four bags at a time with the tractor too. And do not forget that every bag and the tractor must be lashed down to the deck befor transport. A dual axle dump trailer with a tarp is much easier to deal with.

"Pronovost" makes avery good trailer that will dump three ways -both left and right sides and to the rear.


The one brand you have not mentioned is a "Chomper Firewood Processor".

Look at their web site and you need not look further as a log loader or live deck or front end loader is not required and is not needed.

They have an excellent video on thier web page which takes the time to fully explain the benefits of a chomper. The PTO model they have does not require a lot of horse power but require a tractor simply capable of lifting the processor and being able to move it. A small 2 wheel drive tractor with adequate horse power would be fine for the PTO model-unless you want a four wheel drive model.

A tractor and large Pronovost dump trailer loaded by the chomper could be used for delivering fire wood simply by registering it and having proof of insurance for them with the local DMV office.

Having a tractor allows you to use the front end of the tractor to hitch and steer the trailer in for faster line of site dumping.


www.chomper.com


You can forget about government grants as there are none despite what you see and here from promotor sites for same.

All the SBA will do is guarantee the bank loan to the member bank if they(the SBA)approve the business plan.


The amount of wood you want to sell is simply a matter of market demand if there is a market you will be competing with others including the ones in it for a quick dollar and no taxes paid-you will have to include fuel tax most likely in large volume sales(cords or tons)

Tonnage is easier to sell than cords as you will have a weight slip to give to the customer and eliminate any possibility of the customer accusing you of cheating them, New york allows for the sale of firewood by the ton or cord.

Small business loans are typically for no more than 7 years total at current market rates.

You must have a legitimate business plan for them to even look at you!

A business plan will have 48-72 months of "potential" income versus estimated expenses for fuel, oil, and budgeted repairs, insurance expenses for the equipment and truck and trailer and equipment depreciation and you must pay your self a salary too from the gross reciepts, a milage deduction is also allowed for travel with the firewood to its destination and back to the log yard.

Bundle and bulk sales will require you to have a tax ID number to allow you to purchase parts, fuel, and other items essential to the business with out sales tax and for resale of the bundles to retailers and wholesalers

There is no typical payback period as that is very misleading due to separate conditions for a seller of any product.

A payback period is the actual time it takes you to pay off your debts and pay expenses and recieve income.

Generating income is number one to cover expenses and paying for equipment and giving yourself a salary.

Owning a wood lot or barter swapping for clearing gives you free firewood logs as it does not have to be purchased from a logger. The problem is legitimately estimating the value of the barter-swap for tax purposes.


It is even better if you have a regular job as that way they will be assured they will be payed back.

If you have family that loves you the money will be easier to obtain.


Its not at all simple and if oil continues to drop as it is doing now you will be equally screwed.



leon :jawdrop: :jawdrop:

 

[Ken05]

What Leon just posted is the average knowledge one needs to know to survive in New York State.