Support structure for drying lumber

[NuggyBuggy]

After milling my first boards I am now re-thinking about how to store the lumber. I had erected an outdoor car shelter, measuring about 10'x20', and was given some skids/pallets on which I had planned to lay the lumber.

However, I realize now that the ground is not that flat in any direction, and it's a little soft in parts, and not all my skids are the same height.

I was thinking about building some sort of structure out of 2 x 4s, maybe standing up on their sides with cross-members, but any structure I could imagine would seem to be prone to moving unevenly, under heavy weight over uneven ground.

Can anyone share some ideas or pictures as to what I might do to present a flatter support surface ?

 

[Talltom]

You're right - a heavy stack on uneven ground will not be stable. A stack can slope along its length and still be stable, but should be level across its width. It can be a little off level side to side as long as you are careful with stacking. You could use concrete blocks and shims to level wooden supports, but the soft ground presents its own problems. If it's not too deep and the slope isn't too bad, this may still be doable. My first drying rack consisted of pairs of cinderblocks on 2" of sand (replacing the topsoil) with 4' 2x4s spanning the blocks. I attached a pair of short "ears" to the ends of the 2x4s which go down into the cinderblocks and hold the 2x4s in place and upright. I used cedar shims between the cinderblocks and the bottom of the 2x4s to level them side to side and make them straight end to end (using a taut line as a gauge). The stack is about 6" lower on one end, but was level enough side to side to only need a single shim. I'm still using this rack. The shims needed some adjustments after a couple years when I took the wood off, but I didn't notice any significant degrade in the lumber that was stacked on it.

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Later drying racks have been much more involved and do not require flat ground. I make a 4'x10' deck structure (w/o the decking) using 2x8 lumber and 4 - 4x4 posts. Cross supports are every 2' and posts are set 6'3" apart so that the structure cantilevers about 20" on each end. The posts are set in the ground to below the frost level (24" here) and notched to accept the long side rail and the cross rail. My initial attempt did not use notched posts but the weight of the stack bent the 3/8 inch bolts that were holding up the rails. I now use rapid setting concrete in the bottom of the post hole to spread out the weight. 4x4 post goes down about 16" and I use concrete to about 4" above the bottom of the post. I'm not worried about side to side movement, as the top of the 2x8s is about 12-16 inches above ground. This size structure will work for boards up to 12' long. A longer structure will need additional posts.
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Doing it this way in Canada would be difficult due to the depth of the frost heave line. I would just go down enough to get rid of the soft soil and use a concrete post support. Hopefully, the ground will heave the same at all the posts. Going down the same depth at all the post locations would help. You'll probably need lateral bracing since the posts won't be fixed into the ground.

 

[StevenBiars]

Talltom's pictures:

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Thanks for the pics talltom. I thin putting pouring concrete is out of the question right now, in fact I don't event want to put posts in the ground. I think its rock not too far down below the ground, perhaps above the frost line.
I do have some cinder blocks I could try to use.

I wonder if I could make a structure using some of these:

http://www.2x4basics.com/WorkBench-Legs.asp

They say each shelf can hold 1000 lbs... I could build the structures just wide and long enough to hold each set of slabs. I would need to put in some cross beams though, to keep the boards from warping.

I also happen to have picked up 6 of these a few weeks ago on CL thinking they might come in handy.

 

[betterbuilt]

I'd think twice about using Plastic legs to store lumber.

I use concrete blocks like in Talltoms first picture. Then I use 4x4's or 6x6's. My piles probably get in to the 3-4000lb range. Plastic legs wouldn't have a chance. Think simple and you'll do just fine. I try to support at least every four feet for two inch slabs. I try to go high enough that the grass isn't stoping the drying process.

 

[Talltom]

They'll sink right into the ground. You need a much larger bearing surface. Cinderblocks would be better, a pair every 2 ft. 1000 lbs isn't that much wood. If you're going to be span more than 2-3ft between supports, you need to use larger lumber. Code requirements for a deck that's 4x8 is almost a ton, so you need to think in terms of 2x6 or 2x8 instead of 2x 4s.

How are you going to level it? The nice thing about wooden posts is that they can be cut to length to level the structure. If the ground is too uneven to use blocks, they make concrete block post supports specifically to accept the end of a 4x4. The structure will need to be level in both directions and braced against racking, and you'll need to be careful not to bang into it too hard when stacking the slabs. Sinking the blocks a few inches into the ground will enhance stability. The real question is whether you're going to use this structure in the future or just for this winter.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

OK, the plastic legs are out. Thanks guys.

Talltom, would a place like Home Depot sell the concrete block supports for 4x4s that you mentioned ?

As for how I intend to level - I really hadn't given this whole issue much thought until this week. The only idea I can think of right now is to build a structure with, say, the blocks and 4x4s you suggest, or wood on cinder blocks as you pictured. Then build some other structure which lays on top of that structure, but overhangs it a bit so that any of the sides could be lifted with a Hi-jack. Then shim as necessary as time goes on. As I write this, though, it is starting to sound unsafe.

In answer to your other question - ideally I wouldnt have to rebuild the structure before these logs are dry, but if the best I can do is make it over the winter, I'll be fine with that. In fact, I'm a little worried about how wet the ground will be come spring, something I didn't pay attention to in years prior (it's a distance from my cottage).

I'm starting to get worried that I'm going to get preoccupied with figuring out how to build this structure and that it's going to sidetrack me from milling, especially since I only have a few hours each weekend to work. On the other hand, it'd be a shame to go to all this trouble to mill these logs and then have them warp.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Here's what I've come up with so far.

I'm going to start by building a 4x10 structure. I've cut my biggest log into 3 ~10' sections.

I'm going to buy some cinder blocks (the Home Depot I went to said they didn't have any, but as I drove out, I saw a bunch of them in the yard ). Even though I have a bunch, I'll buy them to make sure they're the same size.

I bought 4 4"x4"x10' pressure treated posts. I would have gone to 6x6 but these were almost 4 times as much money and the Home Depot only had 3 or 4 split ones.

I'm going to lay the 4x4s along the long dimension (obviously) of my structure, spaced evenly and spanning a 4' width. I'll put the cinder blocks underneath these, spaced also evenly. Not sure how close these blocks need to be, but they're cheap, so I'll probably put more rather than less - say, every 2'.

Then I bought some joist hangers. I had a bunch of pressure treated 2x4s cut to 4' widths. I'll use the joist hangers to keep the 2x4s vertical, on top and perpendicular to, the 4x4s. Every intersection of 2x4 and 4x4 gets a joist hanger. Again, not sure how far apart to separate the 2x4s, but right now I am thinking about every 15".

Then I'll just lay my first slabs perpendicular to, and directly on, the 2x4s.

What do you guys think ?

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Here's what I'm hoping to do.

The number of cinder blocks, divisions along each dimension, etc. are negotiable :smile2:

Please note that I screwed up and the dimensions I used for my 4x4s are, yes, 4" x 4". Also, the width of my structure is not 4' as I had suggested I wanted. The dimensions as depicted are 5' x 10'. 2 x4s are held upright by joist hangers that are screwed into the 2x4 and 4x4.

The guy I talked to at Home Depot seems to think this is overkill. I told him I had spent a lot of money and time on this, and wanted to do my best to maximize my chances of a positive outcome.

What do you guys think ? Too much ? Not enough ? This structure is already costing me a lot more than I had hoped to spend...

 

[bobt]

Not to derail this thread, but you guys are talking about "cinder blocks". I am almost sure that real honest to goodness cinder blocks are NLA. I believe you mean "concrete blocks"

Supports for drying lumber need not be elaborate at all. When we had a sawmill years ago, we regularly stored maybe 30-40 thousand board feet of lumber drying out in the air. We simply set two beams about 8 feet apart and approximately level with each other, (say railroad ties) on blocks or more commonly on truck rims. The stickered piles were about 12' high. We mostly sawed softwood lumber, so they sat like that for about one year before going to the planer. If the bunks shifted a little it really made no difference in the quality of the lumber.

Don't over think or over engineer it!

Bob

 

[gemniii]

Don't over think or over engineer it!

Bob

What he said.

You should investigate solar kilns. You've probably got enough material for two!

And if you've got enough logs cut your own 4x4's.

 

[betterbuilt]

I'd love to end up with what your building. I would say it's over kill. Here's a pic of a shorter log I had at my milling yard before I moved it home. Simple is the best.

I started to make a video of stacking lumber but got side tracked and it never happened. I should finish it some day. Here's a pic from the side of one of my stacks. You can't see the blocks but if you could you'd find I used bricks and peices of 2x, 1x and shims to level up the 4x4's.

The bricks and blocks are what I used to build my next Lumber stack. Most of it came from the side of the road.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Here's what I'm hoping to do.

The number of cinder blocks, divisions along each dimension, etc. are negotiable :smile2:

Please note that I screwed up and the dimensions I used for my 4x4s are, yes, 4" x 4". Also, the width of my structure is not 4' as I had suggested I wanted. The dimensions as depicted are 5' x 10'. 2 x4s are held upright by joist hangers that are screwed into the 2x4 and 4x4.

The guy I talked to at Home Depot seems to think this is overkill. I told him I had spent a lot of money and time on this, and wanted to do my best to maximize my chances of a positive outcome.

What do you guys think ? Too much ? Not enough ? This structure is already costing me a lot more than I had hoped to spend...

Cement blocks are a LOT weaker when placed on their sides like that! and i've seen them break that way

I use "used" cement blocks with "used" (but in good condition) railroad ties (7x9's) on top, over DRY ground that has GOOD drainage! 8" block with 9" tie and the pile is high enough, then i sticker at least every 4' (best grade lumber in the middle of the stack, and cover with tin...

BTW, i'm sure 4x4's wouldn't be strong enough for my stacks, and why not just saw out your own 6x6's??? 7x9's are even better!

Sawing out your own that are BIGGER, allows you to use less blocks and that means it will be MUCH easier to lever in both directions AND will keep your cost down.

Rob

 

[Talltom]

Lots of options if the site is relatively flat - you indicated earlier that it wasn't.

Yes - your plan is overkill. The more blocks you use, the more work it takes to level/straighten them. Don't worry about used blocks - they've been standard sizes for many many years and you will need to shim to level the supports anyway. Put the blocks upright, not on their sides. 18-24" is recommended spacing for 1x or 5/4 boards. It's overkill for slabs; the thicker your slabs, the further apart the supports can be, so for 2" or greater thickness slabs, 3 supports 3' apart would be plenty (you want your wood to overhang the end supports a little). You can stiffen the whole pile by strapping it together with binding straps. They also help reduce warp as the wood dries. Make sure you have stickers near the straps. I would skip the 2x4s and joist hangers, cut your 4x4s in half and put them across the blocks width wise. Let them cantilever over the end of each block by 4-6 inches. If you shim between the block and the 4x4, do so at both ends of each block to reduce the effective span of the 4x4.

 

[gemniii]

<snip>
BTW, i'm sure 4x4's wouldn't be strong enough for my stacks, and why not just saw out your own 6x6's??? 7x9's are even better!

Sawing out your own that are BIGGER, allows you to use less blocks and that means it will be MUCH easier to lever in both directions AND will keep your cost down.

Rob

And then when your addiction for fresh cut wood grain becomes stronger and you graduate to a BSM you'll have some 7x9 cants you can cut down to 4/4!!

 

[mikeb1079]

around town here the railroad comes thru every once in a while and removes old ties and throws em in a pile. i just cut the ties into 16-20" lengths and used them for the base of my lumber stacks. i just laid em on the ground and leveled em out as i went then 2 x 4's on top. cheap and easy but works!
note the lazy tippy stack job. :smile2: