The Diary of a Chain Builder

[Hatchet Jack]

Hey glens one picture is worth a thousand words. Fred

 

[glens]

So what are you trying to say, Frederick?  Does that photo put me in debt to you for about 750 words?

The top plates on my shale-modified chain look just like your side plates.  There's 14.

I'd like to know why you're antagonizing me.  Is it for a particular reason or just in general?  Did you arrive at those design criteria through theorizing and then either confirming or denying the theories through testing?  Over how much time?  Or is the design based on emulation (it resembles some of uncle Art's chain but for the execution)?  Did you modify that chain yourself or obtain it from somebody else?

Thanks,
Glen

 

[Hatchet Jack]

What I’m trying to say glens is before you dazzle us with anymore of your BS could you build a race chain or at least buy one. Gypo logger’s got em for $75. Better yet just stick to chisels and wood planes there easier to keep out of the rocks. Fred

 

[sedanman]

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said "Here we go again" referring to someone with a low post count. What happens is some new member shows up, which is usully a good thing, but instead of slowly showing us how skilled/knowledgeable thay may be, they go right into antagonist mode. Fred you may be a great guy in person but your communication skills on the keyboard are how you are known here. Please drop this little fight (this applies to Glen as well) in the end the quarreling serves no purpose. I am interested in learning how to make a fast chain and sharing what I know in exchange. Paul

 

[jokers]

Originally posted by Hatchet Jack
This tooth has been stoned. Not ground. Do your grinding on the inside. Fred

Geeesh! I gotta admit that I didn`t expect to see anything like that! Fred, would you explain the purpose of stoning the tooth like that? Is it to limit the lateral pull and consequently kerf width? It seems like it would isolate almost all cutting action to the topplate, is this true? It also appears that method of stoning would eliminate the vertical lead of the sideplate which normally puts the working corner of the sideplate right out in front. What am I missing?

Glen, the chain that I have was stoned parallel to the cutter face which maintained the tooth lead throughout it`s length. I suppose that there are many ways to skin a cat.

Russ

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

What he's done is to dechrome and decrease the lead angle, but only on the front of the tooth. There's no reason to do it all the way down the side plate, unless your increasing the lead or thinning the kerf by thinning the side plate.

I don't fully understand what the lead angle does. I guess if the angle is too flat, the side plate would rub angainst the wood, and as you get a stepper angle you loose cutting speed. So that optimal angle is in there somewhere. Art did touch on this in his thread. As I recall, he liked to change the factory lead to a lower angle.

By just changing the leading edge, like hatch shows in his picture, you would get the best of both worlds, faster cutting and cutter clearance.

 

[jokers]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
What he's done is to dechrome and decrease the lead angle, but only on the front of the tooth......I don't fully understand what the lead angle does. I guess if the angle is too flat, the side plate would rub angainst the wood, and as you get a stepper angle you loose cutting speed......By just changing the leading edge, like hatch shows in his picture, you would get the best of both worlds, faster cutting and cutter clearance.

I`m guessing that you are right Mike, I`d like some confirmation from Fred on that.

It`s very nice to have someone else share some of their chain knowledge with the rest of us, even if we don`t deserve it.

Russ

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I think some of the guys making racing chains don't know why it works, they just copied other racers chains, and if it works, go with it.
I like knowing how and why stuff works, if you understand theory it makes application easier.

 

[Crofter]

Originally posted by Crofter
I'd like to see some ideas about just what stoning the side of the tooth accomplishes and what aspects cause the decrease in cutting times. I know it works but why?

Frank

Hatchet Jack is being a bit flippant perhaps, but the information jives with what I've seen on some chains that have won competitions.
What Mike Maas conjectures about stoning is in line with what I think stoning accomplishes. In a working chain you want the tooth to cut considerably on the side of the cutter to compensate for pinch or swell by compression wood. because it has a lateral angle of attack it will cut the edge of the kerf even on the way out with the top of the bar. the leading out into the end grain causes the teeth to splay out to whatever the rivet cleaarance allows. It cuts a kerf wider than the measured width of the at rest chain.

With a racing chain you want each bite to be only vertical into the wood immediately below where the tooth is planted on the wood
The side plate only has to sever the end grain directly in front of it. The zero lead angle or lack of tool clearance plus the cutting edge to raker side clearance also being virtually zero, causes the kerf made to be only as wide as the spread of the at rest chain cuttter. If the chain touches wood at the top of the bar it only lightly rubs and does not cut.

Besides destroying side lead angle, stoning reduces kerf width, reduces tooth thickness at cutting edge and resulting sidecast of chip.

This is my way of explaining what happens. I certainly invite discussion of the whys of this: my observation on things I have tried on chains so it is not completely arm chair engineering.

Frank

 

[glens]

Originally posted by Hatchet Jack
What I'm trying to say glens is before you dazzle us with anymore of your BS could you build a race chain or at least buy one. Gypo logger's got em for $75. Better yet just stick to chisels and wood planes there easier to keep out of the rocks. Fred

Dennis Cahoon used to interact here in much the same way as you do, Fred.  We all know that if I were interested in having a race chain that I would either build or buy one.  Maybe since you're new here, you haven't heard that I'm not overwhelmingly impressed with chainsaw racing.  I don't look down at it, but it doesn't lure me.  I do enjoy theorizing about stuff like mechanical interactions such as occur with a chain and wood, though.

It's funny, really, that I "stoned" my chain.  I guess I had it coming.

Part of your response that reminds me of Mr. Cahoon is in the way you ignore questions which might actually impart information to the discussion.  Please read through my previous post and consider answering the questions I'd sincerely and nicely asked, won't you?

Glen

 

[Hatchet Jack]

I’ve been warned by members here that this kind of thing would happen. You were one of the people they warned me about glens so I’m putting you on my ignore list. Ain’t got time to talk any chain talk right now. Fred

 

[Weatherby]

This may be a stupid question, but why aren't thre rivets on the tooth ground down?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Weatherby the fact that you asked that question tells me you need to read this thread.

 

[Crofter]

Weatherby;

I think the rivets on the rest of the chain have been ground. I believe the cutter itself was ground inside mounting surface before assembly. It is a bit dark in the picture but it looks a little thinner in by the bar rails compared to the two adjacent tie straps. The rivets will then be already deeper by the amount the cutter was thinned. My rivet heads on the cutters are noticibly different looking tho the heads have been touched a bit by grinding. Mike set you up a big task but I think you have already done it..

Frank

 

[Weatherby]

Frank,

Well that makes sense as far as thinning the tooth, but I would still think those rivets would be sticking out more than the rest of the chain. But you cover this saying the rivets on the cutters of your chains get touched a little. I have read the Art Martin Thread several times, but I am in no way a chain builder. Im still lucky if I can get my round ground chain to cut somewhat fast. I will bow out and become a spectator again.

Rob

 

[Crofter]

Weatherby

The outside surface of the cutter is not flush with the tie straps if the inside has been surface ground some 10 or 15 thou. so the rivet head is that much shy of the other rivets. With the body of the cutter being thinner you might want a little more rivet head left for insurance too. I'm guessing a bit because it is hard to see exact detail in that picture.
The attached picture is of a chain I dechromed and narrowed but didn't stone. You can see that heads of the rivets have been almost removed. Compared to the untouched chain with it you can see quite a difference. If memory serves me one was 3.1 in the cut and the other 2.2 It was fast, but weak; there is better technology.
There is a lot of background in the pic so you may have to scroll. I tried to crop but lost it.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

Lets see that 3rd place chain of yours Gypo. Fred

 

[Crofter]

Hatchet

Lets see some of your chain!
I'd like to hear your explanation of why stoning works.

Frank

 

[ehp]

just to set the record straight, Gypo is now a full time race chain grinder, and why wouldn't he
so when you need a race chain just think Gypo he is our man ,cause if he cannot do it nobody can

 

[Bernard]

Plus he's cheap too! I made an order last week. We'll see how fast he is filling his orders.
Bernie