The Mystery of the Clearcut

[slowp]

Prior to rescuing the elk hunter, I was looking at a just finished clearcut. On the NW side, I saw this.

The stumps had been torn up in this area. Looked like a couple acres were done. At first, I wondered if a new road had been built and the stumps endhauled, but nope, the stumps in the area had been torn out.
Anybody have any ideas why? Rootrot--but wouldn't they need to be removed and or burned?


View attachment 206359

 

[Jacob J.]

We did something like that here on a state unit to see if we'd get lower mortality out of the seedlings. I think ultimately we didn't because the soil didn't retain as much water afterward (or something to that effect.)

 

[hammerlogging]

maybe as a site prep expirament- could help regulate spacing and lower logging cost?

 

[madhatte]

Seems to me I remember reading some conflicting reports about ripping stumps for LRR control. As I recall, it dies pretty quickly when exposed to air, so ripping the stumps may show a short-term benefit in terms of early seedling mortality, but that benefit comes at the cost of lost site productivity later due to removing beneficial flora along with the detrimental kinds. Also the runoff/compaction issues that always come with disturbance in these parts. Ripping stumps has been pretty much abandoned in most places as a site prep method for these reasons. We tried it a few years ago and all we ended up with with was a bunch of stumps we couldn't burn and a mess of Scots' Broom where there wasn't any before. Whomever owns that land may have a deal to sell the biomass as hogfuel; there are a few operators hereabouts with tub grinders, and a few folks who buy by the ton, but so far, it hasn't panned out as particularly lucrative, in spite of government incentives. Myself, I'd as soon see the nutrients stay on-site, rather than being lost when they are burned somewhere else.

 

[hammerlogging]

I think I'd like to be on your team.

 

[madhatte]

More the merrier!

 

[2dogs]

Seems to me I remember reading some conflicting reports about ripping stumps for LRR control. As I recall, it dies pretty quickly when exposed to air, so ripping the stumps may show a short-term benefit in terms of early seedling mortality, but that benefit comes at the cost of lost site productivity later due to removing beneficial flora along with the detrimental kinds. Also the runoff/compaction issues that always come with disturbance in these parts. Ripping stumps has been pretty much abandoned in most places as a site prep method for these reasons. We tried it a few years ago and all we ended up with with was a bunch of stumps we couldn't burn and a mess of Scots' Broom where there wasn't any before. Whomever owns that land may have a deal to sell the biomass as hogfuel; there are a few operators hereabouts with tub grinders, and a few folks who buy by the ton, but so far, it hasn't panned out as particularly lucrative, in spite of government incentives. Myself, I'd as soon see the nutrients stay on-site, rather than being lost when they are burned somewhere else.

It would seem that there would be so much root mass left in the ground that LRR would live on uneffected regardless if the stump was ripped out or not. Or does LRR not penetrate deeply into the root system?

 

[paccity]

Prior to rescuing the elk hunter, I was looking at a just finished clearcut. On the NW side, I saw this.

The stumps had been torn up in this area. Looked like a couple acres were done. At first, I wondered if a new road had been built and the stumps endhauled, but nope, the stumps in the area had been torn out.
Anybody have any ideas why? Rootrot--but wouldn't they need to be removed and or burned?


View attachment 206359

i saw a small strip a couple weeks ago up on some weyco land here, wondered that myself? and they had all the stumps and slash all forwarded up on the landing. i have seen some of thoughs big tub grinders being hauled around here lately.

 

[Cedar Ed]

It will look different after some heavy rain.

 

[forestryworks]

Reminds me of biochar.

I haven't researched it too deeply, but as the madhatte said, those nutrients need to stay on-site; more so in clearcut situations.

And those stumps, if left on-site, make a great microsite/microclimate for the regen, which is definitely needed in clearcuts.

I'm joining Joe and Nathan!

 

[flushcut]

A fat wood harvest, maybe? Is it being turned into farm land? I have no idea but am curious.

 

[slowp]

A fat wood harvest, maybe? Is it being turned into farm land? I have no idea but am curious.

Nope. I certainly hope it isn't being turned into farm land. It is part of a huge tree farm. I won't mention the company. It is timberland that has changed hands a few times. I believe it was Champion, originally.

All I could think of was what a hard time the future timber cruisers are going to have in that junk. I shall monitor it, and see if it does get hauled away. The logging equipment has moved out, and the gate is locked.

 

[forestryworks]

A fat wood harvest, maybe? Is it being turned into farm land? I have no idea but am curious.

Check out this thread on fatwood; Doug-fir vs. Ponderosa Pine vs. Lodgepole Pine vs. Honduran Longleaf Pine.
http://www.bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41921

Interesting.

 

[flushcut]

Could it be part of a study of sorts? Either way opcorn:

 

[flushcut]

Check out this thread on fatwood; Doug-fir vs. Ponderosa Pine vs. Lodgepole Pine vs. Honduran Longleaf Pine.
Bushcraft USA Forums

Interesting.

Thanks for the link.

 

[RPM]

Stumping for root rot like madhatte said .....Laminated root rot n the coastal stands and we do it for Armillaria root rot in the interior. We stump only where it would be preferred to put doug-fir back as part of the planting stock - where doug-fir was a major component of the original stand and where the root rot incidence was high. Cut doug-fir stumps provide an innoculum source (food) for the fungus so pulling it out of the ground removes the food source. Root rot spreads by root to root contact.


In places where we can't stump - ground over 40% slope, we mix plant with more species and drop the doug-fir percentage down. Our interior dry belt fir stands are full of Armillaria so we stump alot. Hemlock and western red cedar are more tolerant but still susceptible and the pines seems resistant - lodgepole and yellow ( Ponderosa).

Without stumping I've read that the root disease can live for up to 40 yrs if the stumps are big enough. Lots of studies in BC to show that it works and b/c they are mostly gov't studies they must be right. In the end we have legislated responsibility to re-establish the stands we cut, monetary penalties to not doing that in certain time frame as well the constraints posed for harvesting to adjacent clear cuts if not sufficiently restocked.

 

[madhatte]

I won't mention the company. It is timberland that has changed hands a few times. I believe it was Champion, originally.

Oh, THOSE jokers. Yeah, I bet they're testing the waters to see if hogfuel today will bring a better ROI for their investors than waiting fifty years for a timber harvest. They, like other REITs, are on my "list".

It would seem that there would be so much root mass left in the ground that LRR would live on uneffected regardless if the stump was ripped out or not. Or does LRR not penetrate deeply into the root system?

LRR works from the small, fine outermost roots to the thick, central structural ones over time. It does not attack all roots at the same time, nor at the same rate. This is why in blowdown pockets they will end up all jackstrawed rather than laying in the direction of a prevailing wind; they simply don't all fail the same. This is also why when you see the stain on the stump it's often only on one side, or in short bands that don't complete a ring all the way around the stem. Sometimes it's possible to estimate the center of an infection area by the density and direction of blowdowns, but that is hardly the rule. The nearest thing to a "rule" this stuff follows is that it spreads at a rate of about 1 foot diameter per year throughout an infected area. Oh, and you're almost entirely unlikely to ever be able to identify it by a fruiting body, unlike Armillaria.

Cut doug-fir stumps provide an innoculum source (food) for the fungus so pulling it out of the ground removes the food source. Root rot spreads by root to root contact.

This is exactly right. It's not uncommon for a plantation to die over a single summer when the saplings all contact old roots at the same time. Even spacings lead to even mortality. If you've ever seen a whole hillside turn red at once, that's what you're seeing. However, the medium-sized roots that get left behind when stumps are are pulled can be just as active an inoculum source as anything else and have been known to last for 10-30 years depending on site and source, so ripping is really more a feel-good activity that costs plenty and probably returns nothing. The worst is when somebody rips then retires while the plantation still looks good, and then isn't there to share the sinking feeling when the disease hits a few years later.

Thing is, this is an endemic disease that has co-evolved with the forests it lives in. It only attacks forests between about 30 and 100 years of age; after that, the remaining stand has either survived the attack or has developed resistance. It's only modern forestry practices that make LRR appear epidemic -- in mature stands, it is a minor pathogen at best.

 

[RPM]

When I worked on the coast, LRR pockets were easier to identify and we tended to spot treat with a mixed plant rather than try to stump. Fallers were to "X" stumps with stain and the planters would not put any DF around for a certain radius.

Armillaria on the other hand is everywhere so we survey (sorta) and try to stratify areas greater than 1ha (2.5 acres) for treatment. In the past we tended to prescribe broadcast treatments (stumping) but cost is a driver too so more professional judgment (...risk management) these days and fingers crossed. We plant to 1,800 sph (stems/ha) and look for a target stocking of 1,000 - 1,200 sph and lower for higher elevation areas (varies by eco type and stuff!). That 400-600 extra trees usually takes care of any mortality that will occur over the 5 - 15 yrs that we are responsible to get the stand to the necessary stocking and height. Root rot aside, the biggest pain in a lot of our "almost" there plantations are bears. They like young lodge pole pine in that 4-6" dia range and nice and tall…..they girdle the stems eating the cambium layer. Then in the high elevation its the snowmobiles breaking off the leaders early in the snow season....fire....bugs...and ****** porcupines!

I digress ... lately I've become more of a re-forester rather than a "de-forester" .... The later being my preference. Times are tough and do what you have to ....

 

[madhatte]

Fallers were to "X" stumps with stain and the planters would not put any DF around for a certain radius.

Funny thing right there -- I am working on a study right now regarding exactly that. I went through after the fallers had "X'd" the stumps and cut off all of the other stumps an inch or so below the top. I found that even a faller tuned to the signs of LRR misses a lot... to the tune of 75% of stumps showing the stain! The real surprise was that the stain "develops", like a photograph, over 24-48 hours, so a faller would have to mark the stumps 2 days after cutting to get them all. Making matters worse, the stain fades t invisible in 6-8 weeks, so the window of opportunity to mark the stumps is narrow indeed. Further, a stump that has been skidded over or even just has leaf debris blown onto it will tend to hide the stain, even if it is visible, and the roots pushing sap helps to collect and hold debris. In short, I am of the opinion that having the fallers mark the stumps, while inexpensive, is totally ineffective for determining the true extent of an infection. If you really want to know where the disease is and where it's going, you need a dedicated pathologist to follow up behind the logging operation and GPS everything. Sound expensive? It is. That's why we're not doing it.

As for planters, I've found that the fastest and cheapest way to keep seedlings from inoculum is to be a few paces ahead of the crew looking at the stumps; if it's obviously infected with LRR, I have them plant something else from their bags. This has the added benefit of planting a mixed crop which discourages monoculture and the risk of losing entire plantations at once. However, alder survival is poor if they are not planted closely enough together, as they prefer to share the load of feeding the Frankia root nodules and simply can't do it very well alone.


Oh, and you're right -- porcupines are jerks.

 

[floyd]

Is the unit flat enough to run equipment on?

Were they windrowed?

I assume it was/is doug fir?

Any evidence of corn field forestry in the vicinity?

In the southeast, some stumps are torn out & processed for turpentine. Then a large bedder pulled by a rubber tired skidder is run across it then it is machine planted.

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I did not read far enough before I responded. I did not realize this was THOSE AFTER THE RAPERS ground. They would never think outside the box as it may cost one ROI.


I have a spot that was wind throw on an east aspect that gets wind right off the creek 1/4 mile below. It went over in 96. Only an acre. All down stems orient to the south.

I have a spot a little east of that but in a bit of a hole. Jack strawed here from LRR. Not even an acre. Bit by bit, like was discussed.