to stake, or not to stake, that is the question...

[MillerTreeMN]

ive got this bad feeling about this tree. its a white pine, about 27-30 feet tall, just over 1 foot across at the base.

the tree leaned LAST FALL during a wind storm. its shifted at least 6 feet or more at the top, leaning towards their garage.

i told the people it should NOT be salvaged. i told them to look into the hole in the ground- you can look 1-1.5 feet into the ground and see NO roots on the side it is leaning away from

they insist we pull it upright and stake it.


1- it should have been done 5 months ago
2- will the roots even grow back on the one side?
3- i told them it could easily crack the roots on the other side
4- im worried about it cracking all the way through the base, and going where ever it feels like falling once we pull on it with a rope.
5- i dont mind staking a 12-15' tree that recently leaned over, but this thing is about 30 feet tall.

what would YOU do?

my gut tells me NOT to do the job.

im more than comfortable climbing this tree to take it down, ive done trees leaning that much that were 3 times the size of this, leaning just as bad. but i do NOT think it should be pulled on.

 

[Toddppm]

Give them a price on removal and another price including a new tree.
I turn down a lot of these jobs, I think it's rediculous to try and save most trees that have pulled out of the ground like that.

 

[jefflovstrom]

If you do stake it and it fails, you will be blamed.
Jeff

 

[sgreanbeans]

If you do stake it and it fails, you will be blamed.
Jeff

Amen, as soon as you stake it, you own it, and all of it's issues. Remove and replace.

 

[ducaticorse]

have them sign a disclaimer.

 

[treeseer]

Amen, as soon as you stake it, you own it, and all of it's issues.

You'll own some of its issues, sure, but if the owner signs off on it and you disclaim, you have no worries, IF your work is done to standards. Spend $8 and buy the rule book,
Best Management Practices Series (BMP) - Tree Support Systems

The first job on any tree is to find the topmost roots. That tells you condition, prognosis, and strategies for guying the tree. Until then we're all just hissing in the wind.

Remove and replace.

This mantra is really getting old. Echoes of "when in doubt, cut it out" from utility work back in the 70's. Isn't it better to make an informed decision, and look at all reasonable options?

 

[alanarbor]

I have to second Treeseer on this one. As arborists we are justifiably gunshy about taking resposibilty for certain risks.

However, if you provide a client with enough information to make an informed descision, and have an appropriately worded contract with work done according to industry standards you should be in good shape.

I have sucessfully guyed up trees with failed roots, and had the root system re-establish over time. The tree will require monitoring and supplemental care during that period.

 

[beastmaster]

On any iffy tree the potential target if it should fail, should have a high priority deciding what action should be taking. If they care more for the tree then the garage and it contents and will sign a disclaimer, you can try thinning and reducing the crown and what ever other stabilizing methods you want, but the fact is it'll probably never be as strong as the first time it failed in that storm and started to lean.
It'll only be a matter of time tell the next big, or bigger storm hits that area. Whats going to happen then?

 

[oldugly]

I agree with treeseer. The best thing to do is to make an informed decision. The clients obviously want to save the tree, work with them to find a solution that is acceptable, and relieves you of responsibility of future failure.
Cambistat, or another tgr, could possibly help stimulate regrowth of the roots once the tree has been righted...include treatment, and follow-up monitoring in the bid.
I was called out to uright a tree awhile ago, and expressed my concerns to the client when I did so. She wanted to save the tree, so I told her I would do my best with no guarantees of success. The tree still stands today, and recent evaluation shows new root growth in the area that was uprooted/torn.
Obviously it would have been better to have done the work before winter, and the dessication, freezing, and winter damage of the exposed roots, but with a little investigation you may be able to determine the amount of dessication, or possibly the lack of it. To me that would be the key to successfully staking the tree, or convincing the client that removal is the only option.

 

[sgreanbeans]

I see your guys point, and agree. I am looking at it from the "risk mitigation" point. If the tree was out in a yard, away from property, maybe I would give it a shot, younger would be better too, but the tree has a target and may or may not re-root.
Remove and replace is old, but still applies in many situations.
No matter the reason for removal, I always try and push them to plant a new one, whether I do it or not.

 

[Toddppm]

If a tree comes out of the ground with it's root system whole and not torn up or broken because it's rotten sometimes it's worth it.
That's usually far and few between, alot of times it's a tree planted in the wrong spot that's waterlogged and wasn't going to do good anyway or was improperly planted.
Saw this today that made me think of this thread.

 

[Frax]

Like these?

One fell, and we removed the other. In my opinion the root ball never developed sufficient lateral roots because the cage and burlap were never removed or even cut partly away.
If the tree could be saved I wuld also recommend looking at the roots and addressing why there was a problem in the first place. It may not be worth the expense.


Fallen tree at condo by altacal, on Flickr


Leaning tree at condo by altacal, on Flickr

 

[BlackenedTimber]

A picture says a thousand words.

Take a 2x4, a hammer, and a 16-penny nail with you when you go back.

Ask the HO to try and break the 2x4 in half. Likely, they won't be able to. Then whip out a saw and cut the 2x4 in half. Put the two pieces end to end and then toe-nail the 16-penny in with the hammer. Ask the HO try and break the 2x4 in half now.

Once it breaks, it will never be as strong as it once was.

Point being this: Yes, the tree will maybe reestablish its root system in time. Maybe before that the tree will fall over. Who knows. Yes, the mantra of remove and replace is perhaps overused, but I don't think that means that its not applicable to your situation.

A disclaimer is a good idea, but even so, if the damn thing falls over, the HO is still going to blame you and bad mouth you to their neighbors.

My two cents.

 

[BC WetCoast]

Like these?

One fell, and we removed the other. In my opinion the root ball never developed sufficient lateral roots because the cage and burlap were never removed or even cut partly away.
If the tree could be saved I wuld also recommend looking at the roots and addressing why there was a problem in the first place. It may not be worth the expense.


Fallen tree at condo by altacal, on Flickr


Leaning tree at condo by altacal, on Flickr

Unless the nursery was using treated burlap, I doubt the burlap and wire cage had any effect on the growth of the lateral roots.

In this case, I would suspect crappy soils left from the house construction.

As far as the OP's question, people talk about risk. It's a 27' tree! It won't knock the garage down, at worst punch some holes in the roof and knock off the gutter. It is our job to assess the risk and describe it. We are not the decision makers. If the decision makers are willing to accept this level of risk then stake the tree.

You need to assess the roots, make sure there is no root rot happening. White pine is susceptible to armillaria (western white - Washington State Univ) and annosus (eastern white pine - Bugwood Network). Try and determine the cause of the root plate failure, ie storm with saturated soils, construction damage to the root system etc. What are the soil types? Fine textured, which have more failures or coarse textured, where trees tend to be more stable? Is the root system constrained by surrounding construction, leading to a tree which has too large a crown for the suporting root system?

Given the little information provided, I'm in the stake it and save it camp, but if I might change my mind if I saw it in person. Bottom line, you need to do a more thorough assessment of the tree.

 

[Frax]

Unless the nursery was using treated burlap, I doubt the burlap and wire cage had any effect on the growth of the lateral roots.

In this case, I would suspect crappy soils left from the house construction.

QUOTE]

We could see the basket and burlap still on that taller fallen tree. Didn't seem like too many substantial roots extended except in one plane, the one the tree hinged on.

The artificial burlap doesn't degrade and the real stuff is hardly better in our semi-arid climate. I'm guessing burlap degrades much faster on the coast in moist acidic soils.

I have ground out stumps of healthy trees where the burlap and wire cage are completely inside the expanded trunk flare all nice and new looking. Burlap just does not degrade here.
Whether it actually was the reason for a wintertime fail is certainly debatable and yes, our urban soils are complete crap.

 

[MillerTreeMN]

hey everyone, ive been swamped and havent had time to update this.

i told the customer all of my concerns, and that i would NOT stake the tree. and they called multiple tree services, who told them the exact same things i did about the roots, or it could snap off when pulled upright, etc.

she finally called and told me to remove it.

it took her 3-4 days to even notice the tree was gone, and to call me to settle up / send a check. so much for needing to "Save the tree" if it took them that long to notice it was gone, from their front yard ! either that, or i do an amazing job of cleaning up :msp_smile: