Top down fire

[KsWoodsMan]

Cityevader, I don't know what stove you are using ( exempt or EPA ) but wouldnt a longer burn time with the same or more heat, from the same stove be handy ?

I'm not doing anything special in my stove or camp fire but I get twice the burn time and more useable heat during that time. I had seriously looked into buying an EPA stove. The cost of such though hasn't been budgeted for. If I get the same results without the expence what would be the point to spending on an upgrade?

 

[cityevader]

Cityevader, I don't know what stove you are using ( exempt or EPA ) but wouldnt a longer burn time with the same or more heat, from the same stove be handy ?

I'm not doing anything special in my stove or camp fire but I get twice the burn time and more useable heat during that time. I had seriously looked into buying an EPA stove. The cost of such though hasn't been budgeted for. If I get the same results without the expence what would be the point to spending on an upgrade?

I've got a Jotul C450 Tamarack and the manual doesn't give a combustion chamber volume, but it's tiny and ash buildup rapidly uses up volume.

As a matter of fact Mr. KsWoodsMan, I am an hour into my first top down fire and I am amazed at how well it worked. It certainly does start outputting heat much faster. First attempt tinder burnt out before kindling lit, so I placed a bit above tinder. Vastly, I mean vastly less smoke!!! Worth it just for that!!!

Interesting idea of shovelling the coals on top of the new logs. Perhaps this may reduce my ash buildup? Correction, it's not so much ash as large quanities of small charcoal chunks. It never ever burns down completely to a fine powder unless I'm burning Madronne.

I was thinking of modifying a shovel for sifting, like a kitty litter shovel, to separate the unburnt charcoal from the ash I empty out every stinking day, and adding it to the next fire to reduce waste as much as I can.

Perhaps my problem is I keep stuffing it as soon as there's room? Everyone is shocked when I say how much wood I burn each year.

 

[bore_pig]

Just let me know if I'm butting in on a conversation.

Are we talking about the same thing? I rake my coals east and west when reloading. When I rake the coals to the east, I pull ash from the west. And vice versa. When I'm done pulling ash, I put in a log, and push coals against it. Then I finish loading the stove. Sounds like the same thing. I've never heard it called a top down fire though. I've only heard that name used when talking about lighting a fire. Kindling on top.

 

[starter]

That may help it and why that it works so well in my stove. TreeCo's Jotul and my Federal Airtight are perhaps similar stoves in that respect--the grates allow air to pass underneath the fire and vertically so it is never starved for air on startup, once the draft is established.

The large logs below have gaps between them that allow the air passage to the smaller kindling above them. Once that kindling is hot, the coals from the smaller pieces start igniting the large logs and keep them going, dropping between the gaps.

I usually start with two or three logs at the bottom, newspapers and cardboad next, and then top that with five or six small kindling pieces. At first it may seem slow, but it never fails to catch. Once the kindling is exhausted, I add a couple of more larger logs, and after that, she's on her own for quite awhile.

My modified top down method also requires about half as much newspaper and cardboard.

I don't have that problem at all. Is your wood good and seasoned?

What I like about the top down fire is that once it gets started...even a little bit......it grows into a full fledged fire and does not need fooling with until it's time to reload. The top down starting method also seems to leave the viewing glass cleaner.

The wood is well seasoned but I burn on firebrick so that could be the difference. Just an observation anyway, this method works very well.

I'll try leaving some small gaps between my bottom logs to let the "ember rain" in there. That should help.

 

[bore_pig]

Thank you! Finally an answer.

 

[bore_pig]

Sorry, I jumped the gun. Not an answer yet. Is top down fire a STARTING method? Or is it a method of keeping a fire going as Kswoodsman is describing? I already read the link. It is about a fire STARTING method.

 

[wdanforth]

Worked Great

I tried this top down fire last night. It worked absolutely great.

I have an old Efel stove with a steel bottom with holes for the ashes to fall through to the ash box. I put 3 4"x4" oak pieces on the bottom, then 4 3" round pieces of ash next. On top went some kindling and oak splinters by products from the log splitter. Crumbled newspaper on top. Lit with match and closed the door. Lit perfectly and did not have to touch it for a couple hours.

Beats the old way. First light some newspaper to warm up the chimney. Then pile newspaper and kindling, bigger sticks on top. Light then have to continually add bigger wood.

Top down benefits: Less steps, less smoke, and use way less kindling. Light it and forget it.

It is just a starting method. After a couple hours I just fed the dragon as usual. But it is a superior starting method.

I wouldn't use it for a boyscout campfire which you had to light with 2 matches and no paper. Failure meant eating raw eggs, not to mention the proverbial egg on your face. The eagle scout in me likes to use tried and true methods. Also choosing my wood wisely and have plenty of it before I light that first match.

 

[Crofter]

Just built my first fire yesterday in the new cookstove and it definitely lends itself to top down. It is a different kind of design with a very deep firebox well below the opening and the air inlets. I like Treeco's description that it starts the fire up high so the secondary combustion starts much sooner. You can put quite a load of wood in and it burns progressively toward the bottom of the pile and doesnt try to run away as it gets going. When it is cold enough for continual burning it probably wont apply but right now it is a once a day fire that seems very even heat.

 

[cityevader]

You can even reduce the air input to where you would have it if the stove were up to full temperature........and leave it until the burn is completely over.

Fascinating! I'll have to try that tomorrow night!
I did notice fabulous immediate fire for fast snuggling with my sweetie, rather than waiting for smoldering smoking to eventually heat up and actually roar.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Sorry, I jumped the gun. Not an answer yet. Is top down fire a STARTING method? Or is it a method of keeping a fire going as Kswoodsman is describing? I already read the link. It is about a fire STARTING method.

Either, The link shows it as a starting method. If it works so well to start a fire and gives good results with the first load why not continue to burn it this way ? It would give the same great results with every burn, not just the first one. It wouldnt take much to move some charcoal and glowing coals to the top to get things started again in the same manner.

Treeco, Thanks for posting the link. I had posted it or others like it in other posts a few times in the past. This time should have been no different to bring anyone interested in the topic up to speed on a different approach.

I do like that it doesnt try to run away with itself during the burn time. You get the fire going like you want it and it stays like that just about through the entire burn.

I wouldn't use it for a boyscout campfire which you had to light with 2 matches and no paper. Failure meant eating raw eggs, not to mention the proverbial egg on your face. The eagle scout in me likes to use tried and true methods. Also choosing my wood wisely and have plenty of it before I light that first match.

I can't blame you for that. I like to have a bit of proof as well or to prove it for myself. At first, I wouldn't have either. When we go camping or just out in the back yard for a night I light mine like this. A bit different but the same gassification principle. Set 3-4 8" splits, 12" long on end side by side. Take one out and start your fire in the very middle so it catches the bark of the short rounds and gets a bit of fire going between them. Put the one back in place that you took out earlier. Add a bit of kindling as needed to heat all the rounds enough so that they start to produce smoke that burns. Once the fire starts to climb the bark it is pretty much going to stay going on it's own. The glowing coals reflect all their heat( or most of it ) back into the burn chamber reducing the tars and creosote in the smoke to shorter hydrocarbons. Shorter hydrocarbons burn much easier than long ones. It gives a nice glowing fire for several hours instead of 1-2 hours. Makes an excellent cookfire or evening fire that will last and doesnt need stirred to keep it going.

So far it sounds like positive results from that that use it or have tried it.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

The way the secondary combustion air enters my Jotul Firelight600cb the kindling ends up being really close to the secondary air tubes and secondary combustion starts way before the large pieces on the bottom even catch on fire. This puts on a great fire show early on plus once secondary combustion is under way efficiency is way up early in the burn.

Most of these advantages would be reduced in non epa woodstoves.

I missed didn't miss that earlier , just forgot to comment on it.

I can't argue against that, since a non-EPA stove or EPA exempt doesnt provide for seconary combustion. Some of these doent even have firebrick or an insulating lining. Either of these will raise combustion efficiency but not always overall efficiency. I don't know that I could test the efficiency of it any other way than by how warm the house stays and the fact that I am using much less wood. My test conditions are a bit flawed since not everything has stayed the same from one year to the next. This might account for part of the differences but not al of it since I am making fewer trips to the woodpile.

It works for me. For now I'll stick with what seems to be working best here.

Thanks guys for your input.

 

[Mike PA]

I'm gonna have to try this. I have an old Baker double eagle woodstove, I imagine it is either non-epa compliant or exempt? I never have trouble with starting my fires and then tending them, as I put enough tinder and kindling between larger logs to get it going. I load it once and done.

This method sounds interesting, though. I like the idea of less smoke, because my chimney cap sometimes builds up with creosote. If this can reduce that, I would be happy. When winter comes, I usually don't need to restart the fire often, as there is plenty of coals. However, if I pull the coal out (may not be smart?), load stove, and cover with the coals, then this would serve the same purpose. May be too much of a PITA to do, but I'll probably give it a shot if starting fires top down works for me.

For the guy that was a boy scout, we had to use flint and steel to start fires (depending on time). I would've killed to have a match. Flint and steel, binder twine to make a nest, charred cloth (prepared in advance), and lots of air and burnt fingers.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

I had forgotten some of the different methods we were taught to get a fire started.

You mentioning flint and stone for a spark reminded me of striking that into clean steel wool with tinder. If there was no flint/match you could take the top off your flashlight to short the contacts against the wool to get it lit off.

 

[Mike PA]

Didn't use steel wool much. I did manage to catch steel wool on fire recently when I was working working on corroded trailer harnesses and trying to clean them up.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

My first time seeing it happen I sure wouldn't have thought it would burn.

Boy scouts , the only organization I know where they teach kids to build fires.
Good for them ! Better they do it there then to learn it on the streets.

 

[Coldfront]

I have an inside wood furnace and use a top down fire all the time. I usually let it burn out at night so I have to light a fire about once a day in winter. Here is my best method. Clean the grate and ashes if they are to full, then stack big split logs on bottom then fill it as full as I can with wood, and I stack it tight about as much wood as I can fit into it, then on the top I cut myself off a small piece of Dur-a-log those artificial logs you can buy at Wal mart in the yellow wraper for about $3.00 one Dur-a-log will last me almost all winter they are kind of soft like semi hard clay I cut off a small piece with my small hatchet about the size of a golf ball or maybe even a little smaller, you can mold it with your hands and set it right on top of the wood in the center, then I put some small pine kindling tee pee'd over the top of the chunk of duralog, then just a little bit of small split oak on top of the pine. Thats it! If I set this up it is all ready to go, then when it does get cold or what I like best about it is late at night if it gets cold and I need a fire I go downstairs to the stove light the duralog with one match and go back to bed. It's a done deal. Takes me about 30 seconds to light and one match, no more newspaper and sitting there screwing around with the fire for a half hour to get it lit. One match, one and done!

 

[Coldfront]

I forgot to mention one more important thing that makes my fire light with one match. I use a small propane torch you can buy at the hardware store for about $6.00 it really helps light the chunk of duralog easy because you can get the nozzle of the torch way in there, it would be hard to stick your hand in there with a match. Touch the torch flame to the duralog for about 10 seconds and it's lit. Go back to bed. And I am on my second year with one small propane tank on my torch, replacement propane tanks are about $2.00 I always leave it next to my pile of kindling.

 

[coog]

I'm a big fan of the top down method of starting a wood stove. I've been using it about 3 years now.

I'm curious, TreeCo. Had my first two "seasoning" fires yesterday in the Jotul 600. It is my third Jotul (Nordic, Oslo), and I have found that they are all but impossible to start without "bending" the rule regarding leaving either the ash or loading door cracked open for short periods after lighting.I watch it closely, as it is easy to see how one could have a over-fire situation.I always have dry wood and kindling, but if I rely on intake air only I get nothing but a slow, sputtering flame.Once the fire is going it works fine.My thought is that the EPA regulations have choked that air-intake so much that it is not sufficient for starting, but the engineers at Jotul are worried about people leaving the door open too long. This top-down method might help if using a starter log on top ?

 

[coog]

Thanks for the quick reply.I've got just under 30' of insulated flex liner, so draw should not be the issue.
The old Jotuls that I am familiar with used the round dial for air input;I believe they allowed 4-5 times the air volume of the current stoves.I am all for the cleaner burning properties, but when it becomes necessary to break the rules,even for 60 seconds, you have to wonder if they couldn't provide an engineered solution.

 

[Wood Doctor]

I'm curious, TreeCo. Had my first two "seasoning" fires yesterday in the Jotul 600. It is my third Jotul (Nordic, Oslo), and I have found that they are all but impossible to start without "bending" the rule regarding leaving either the ash or loading door cracked open for short periods after lighting ... This top-down method might help if using a starter log on top ?

I usually leave the bottom ash door cracked on the Federal Airtight until I can hear the flames roar a little, indicating that the draft is established. Then I close it tight. You might want to try my modified approach with some small kindling and cardboard atop the paper. Big logs must remain on bottom, however, which is very convenient.