Tree ID - Chinese/Siberian Elm?

[sw18x]

I'm going to clean this up for the tree company Monday. My tree guy said the homeowner told him what it was but he forgot. He said it was "Japanese" or "Brazilian something". What do you think? If it is "Chinese Elm" can I leave it to dry over the winter without worrying about rot? Thanks!
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[Twindad]

It is not Chinese elm, but it is an elm. Hard to tell from the pictures, but it could possibly be Siberian.
It will be fine to leave it over the winter to cure, just get it up off the ground.

 

[haveawoody]

Bark looks like elm but not so sure it is elm anything, the growth rings are quite wide for a hardwood tree.
If it's elm it was a very happy tree.

 

[brewmonster]

Siberian elm. Yes, get it up off the ground.

 

[ft. churchill]

It is exactly what you called it. The two names are used frequently for the same tree. By the way they are a common yard tree here in the West. (They can take the tough conditions.) This kind of elm by what ever name ya wanna call it is some of my favorite firewood. Treat it like you would as any other hardwood in your area. We never have rot or mold problems here as it is so dry with low humidity. Here's the worst part about elm, it can be a bugger to split.

 

[Twindad]

It is exactly what you called it. The two names are used frequently for the same tree. By the way they are a common yard tree here in the West. (They can take the tough conditions.) This kind of elm by what ever name ya wanna call it is some of my favorite firewood. Treat it like you would as any other hardwood in your area. We never have rot or mold problems here as it is so dry with low humidity. Here's the worst part about elm, it can be a bugger to split.

The two names may be used frequently for the same tree, but Chinese elm (Ulmus parvifolia) and Siberian elm (Ulmus pumila) are two separate species of tree. I believe what the op has is Siberian.

 

[NDtreehugger]

I'm going to clean this up for the tree company Monday. My tree guy said the homeowner told him what it was but he forgot. He said it was "Japanese" or "Brazilian something". What do you think? If it is "Chinese Elm" can I leave it to dry over the winter without worrying about rot? Thanks!
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Looks like Red Elm to me. if it is it will split like Ash with an axe or maul. sweeet wood.

 

[Whitespider]

Siberian Elm...

 

[sw18x]

The leaves on this one are very small, 1 - 2". I did some research online and read that small leaves are a characteristic of Siberian Elm, other elm species the leaves are larger. Either way, doesn't sound like too bad a score, it will be the start of next year's pile.

 

[Whitespider]

Yup, small leaves are the quickest, easiest and most fool-proof way to identify Siberian Elm. Without the leaves... thick bark and a brownish-red to reddish-brown heartwood that is 2/3 to 3/4 the diameter. Normally really, really stringy to split (especially when green)... wait for the bark to separate from the rounds and a real cold (sub 0° is best) day this winter and the splitting will go much better. Siberian Elm is some really wet stuff, it holds a ton of moisture ('round 60-65% by weight) and that makes it seem like heavy, dense hardwood... but once dried it feels light compared to some others.

Red Elm has much larger, tougher and rougher leaves, thinner bark, the heartwood has less red "brilliance" (for lack of a better word) to it (it's more like an Indian brown), and the heartwood covers closer to 7/8's or more the diameter. Often Red Elm will split relativity easy green when compared to other elm, but it does get "tough" (not really stringy) as it seasons... I've split pretty large rounds of green Red Elm using just a maul, but the maul will often bounce on dry rounds from standing dead. Red Elm has a low moisture content ('round 45% by weight), about the same as Ash.

 

[NDtreehugger]

The leaves on this one are very small, 1 - 2". I did some research online and read that small leaves are a characteristic of Siberian Elm, other elm species the leaves are larger. Either way, doesn't sound like too bad a score, it will be the start of next year's pile.

Elm burns real nice, I consider it a lucky find when I get rock elm also dis-like it because of the work it takes to get it to the fire. Red Elm, Chinese Elm or what ever it is not as sweet but a good winter when it’s in the fire.

I should ad you really cant go by the leaf, I have an American Elm in the back yard some years the leaf is less then an inch other years its 2” this year they came late in the season and are about ¾” not much shade at all.

 

[haveawoody]

NDtreehugger,

I hear you on the rock elm work to get it to the fire.
Just finished splitting 2 cords of rounds that had been sitting dead and then that way for about 1 year.

Fun to watch the 22t splitter moan and groan on rounds less than 1ft, the big rounds nearly 1/2 had to be split on the round to break em up.

Had a wonderful 7 wheelbarrow elm bark fire on the pit last night though.

2 long days of splitting, stacking and cleanup and I think I used nearly as many btu personally as the wood will produce LOL

 

[Whitespider]

NDtreehugger,

I've never seen an American Elm leaf less than 4 inches long... most are 5 or more inches. Even in the worst of years, growing in the worst of places, the American Elm will have leaves much larger than 2 inches.

Unless that tree in your yard is only a foot tall (and then they usually still have larger leaves)... if it has leaves 2 inches or less it ain't American, Red or Rock Elm, I'm guessin' Siberian Elm (a common "yard" tree, planted during, and after the Dust-Bowl days). The other possibility would be a hybrid Siberian Elm/Red Elm... Siberian Elm is known to readily hybridize with Red Elm in the wild and experiments with several of those "hybrids" were tried (unsuccessfully) and marketed as a "replacement" in the aftermath of DED.

 

[NDtreehugger]

NDtreehugger,

I've never seen an American Elm leaf less than 4 inches long... most are 5 or more inches. Even in the worst of years, growing in the worst of places, the American Elm will have leaves much larger than 2 inches.

Unless that tree in your yard is only a foot tall (and then they usually still have larger leaves)... if it has leaves 2 inches or less it ain't American, Red or Rock Elm, I'm guessin' Siberian Elm (a common "yard" tree, planted during, and after the Dust-Bowl days). The other possibility would be a hybrid Siberian Elm/Red Elm... Siberian Elm is known to readily hybridize with Red Elm in the wild and experiments with several of those "hybrids" were tried (unsuccessfully) and marketed as a "replacement" in the aftermath of DED.

This tree has been growing 15 or 20 years and is a self starter from an American Elm that was kill off by the DED, This self starter was infected with the DED but survived. I have a few other self starters from the Mother tree on the side yard that don’t seem to be bothered with the DED.

I called the Forestry Department a few years back they were interested because there are some American Elms that are not kill off from the DED and growing DED resistant American Elm is highly desirable.

The change in leaf size could be the result of the DED, besides all that the tree in my back yard is an American Elm.

 

[NDtreehugger]

This is one of the leaves

and this is another

yet another

The top big leaf screems American Elm but the other says something else
Depending on the section of the tree it seems regulates the size and shape of the leaf.
I guess if I was a true horticulturists or botanists I could smell the tree and know what it was
without looking at it.

I’m just a lowly firewood cutter, What do I know about the trees I cut and burn besides one being better for heat then the other?

I should add all are from the same tree that survived the DED

 

[brewmonster]

This is why you can't rely too heavily on a single characteristic for ID, especially traits that can vary a lot, like color or leaf size. If that plant has been growing for 15-20 years, then it probably flowered and fruited this spring, right? Well, the fruits of Siberian and American elms are very different. American: notched at the tip with fine hairs around the margin; Siberian: notch either closed or absent and no hairs. The way they bear their flower clusters is different too. American drooping; Siberian erect. Did you notice any of that? Sometimes plant ID is obvious at a glance (and plenty of people on this site think they can do it with a crappy picture of a rotten chunk of bark or the like), other times you have to look a little more carefully.

 

[haveawoody]

NDtreehugger,

I bet the returning growth is just a last ditch effort of the tree to put out a bunch of seed and depart.
I've see similar effect on Elms and ASH here, they are all but dead, put out a couple strong limbs from the stump for about 5 years, then seed like crazy, then they are also dead.

Hope yours is a real recovery and I have seen that also but it's quite rare for a new growth to have any resistance if the main tree all but died from it.

I bet that is the reason for the odd sizes leaves on yours, tree is saving up energy for seed production and just enough leaf to live until it can.

 

[NDtreehugger]

NDtreehugger,

I bet the returning growth is just a last ditch effort of the tree to put out a bunch of seed and depart.
I've see similar effect on Elms and ASH here, they are all but dead, put out a couple strong limbs from the stump for about 5 years, then seed like crazy, then they are also dead.

Hope yours is a real recovery and I have seen that also but it's quite rare for a new growth to have any resistance if the main tree all but died from it.

I bet that is the reason for the odd sizes leaves on yours, tree is saving up energy for seed production and just enough leaf to live until it can.

This is some of the healing the tree has been through

Here its almost closed,

This one is doing quite well on the sides and bottom but the top looks like it may
need a bit more work to get the tree to start healing better it looks like I may need to do some more cutting and scraping on the top of the wound to get more of the dead off the tree, after we get our freeze and there is ice on the ground I’ll get to work

Here the tree is healing very well all the way around, See the DED Fungus on the left upper part of the wound. that will be scraped out this winter

This all happened about 10 years ago, a few of the branches died but now we have what looks to be a nice growing American Elm .

This year after the freeze the 2 lower branches will come off that will give the Elm a vase shape and with any luck will give shade for years to come

 

[haveawoody]

NDtreehugger,

The closing of the wounds is a good sign that the tree is fighting to recover.
A pretty good indication a tree will do a mental seed rush is when wounds don't close and leaves look odd or growth is at a crazy rate for a few years before that happens.

I think your trees look like they will recover from DED.
If they do recover collect all the seeds you can and go for a walk in a forest that wasn't so lucky and cast them to the wind.
Save some for yourself each year because you might have a rare genetic tree that can endure the DED.
From the top leaf I would have said American elm, bottom leaves look like Siberian.
Maybe it's a crossbreed.

 

[NDtreehugger]

This is why you can't rely too heavily on a single characteristic for ID, especially traits that can vary a lot, like color or leaf size. If that plant has been growing for 15-20 years, then it probably flowered and fruited this spring, right? Well, the fruits of Siberian and American elms are very different. American: notched at the tip with fine hairs around the margin; Siberian: notch either closed or absent and no hairs. The way they bear their flower clusters is different too. American drooping; Siberian erect. Did you notice any of that? Sometimes plant ID is obvious at a glance (and plenty of people on this site think they can do it with a crappy picture of a rotten chunk of bark or the like), other times you have to look a little more carefully.

I didn’t notice the a notch nor the hairs there was no real need, but I do know the fruits was hanging/drooping.

I do collect seed every year and have sent some off to the folks that want them.

Here in North Dakota we have lost almost all the American Elms, everyone seems to be planting
the poplars and cotton, none of the real good long lived hard woods, guess they take too long to grow.

Myself I’m planting Bur Oak, Birch, and Black Walnut not sure if it will do any good, but I have seen some growth in the Walnut