Two Trees or One?

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Stihl User

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When you are taking down a 'tree' that has two or more main trunks attached at the base:
How many actual trees are there???

Some people say, "it is attached at the base therefore one tree".
Others say "each separate trunk requires it's own removal process therefore Trunk A + Trunk B = 2 Trees.

Customers only see one tree because they do not like to pay for two trees when they only see one.

Seeing is believing??? Whats your take?
 
Harmon

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I usually just agree with whatever they want to think and bid according to my time and liability and any pain in the asz factors, and then its a take it/ leave it situation for them from there.

Unless its the middle of a giant patch of aspen on the Colorado plateau...
 
Stihl User

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I usually just agree with whatever they want to think and bid according to my time and liability and any pain in the asz factors, and then its a take it/ leave it situation for them from there.

Unless its the middle of a giant patch of aspen on the Colorado plateau...

AGREE = "pain in the asz factors'
 
Woody912

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When you are taking down a 'tree' that has two or more main trunks attached at the base:
How many actual trees are there???

Some people say, "it is attached at the base therefore one tree".
Others say "each separate trunk requires it's own removal process therefore Trunk A + Trunk B = 2 Trees.

Customers only see one tree because they do not like to pay for two trees when they only see one.

Seeing is believing??? Whats your take?
going home at the end of the day takes precedence over everything else
 
TheJollyLogger

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When you are taking down a 'tree' that has two or more main trunks attached at the base:
How many actual trees are there???

Some people say, "it is attached at the base therefore one tree".
Others say "each separate trunk requires it's own removal process therefore Trunk A + Trunk B = 2 Trees.

Customers only see one tree because they do not like to pay for two trees when they only see one.

Seeing is believing??? Whats your take?
I'm confused.

"Customers only see one tree because they do not like to pay for two trees when they only see one."

Do you have like a set price per tree? One tree, two trees, every situation is different.
From a biological stand point, there are very few tree species that naturally bifurcate at ground level. It is usually 2 trees that have grown together, but based on the rest of your post I'm guessing that you're asking this question for bidding purposes. Give us a little more info, so we can give better advice.
 
Stihl User

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I'm confused.

"Customers only see one tree because they do not like to pay for two trees when they only see one."

Do you have like a set price per tree? One tree, two trees, every situation is different.
From a biological stand point, there are very few tree species that naturally bifurcate at ground level. It is usually 2 trees that have grown together, but based on the rest of your post I'm guessing that you're asking this question for bidding purposes. Give us a little more info, so we can give better advice.

No set pricing on trees unless they are near identical in every aspect of the removal process, which rarely, if ever, exists in the residential neighborhoods that I work in.
Question was thrown out there to see the different approaches taken in the communication process between the minds of the arborist/tree service and the customer.
Bottom line is that the customer wants a great price and that price(in the mind of the arborist) must account for actual risk/labor/time whereas the customer is more focused on the $ aspect to be surrendered for said 'tree'.
 
TheJollyLogger

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No set pricing on trees unless they are near identical in every aspect of the removal process, which rarely, if ever, exists in the residential neighborhoods that I work in.
Question was thrown out there to see the different approaches taken in the communication process between the minds of the arborist/tree service and the customer.
Bottom line is that the customer wants a great price and that price(in the mind of the arborist) must account for actual risk/labor/time whereas the customer is more focused on the $ aspect to be surrendered for said 'tree'.
I guess I still don't understand then. By the time you get to price you should know what your customer wants to call it... so you either tell him you will remove that tree for 1500, or you will remove those 2 trees for 750 each...
Or just be honest with him and educate him a little..."Sir, those are actually two trees that have grown next to each other. The only attachment is some included bark, which isn't structurally sound. They will have to be approached separately."
 
Stihl User

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I guess I still don't understand then. By the time you get to price you should know what your customer wants to call it... so you either tell him you will remove that tree for 1500, or you will remove those 2 trees for 750 each...
Or just be honest with him and educate him a little..."Sir, those are actually two trees that have grown next to each other. The only attachment is some included bark, which isn't structurally sound. They will have to be approached separately."

That is the approach I usually take = educate the customer = "You have a large double Oak, do you want the left side or the right side removed?" and we go from there.................

Some customers cannot 'see' why the double oak is more then the single oak next to it.
 
TheTreeSpyder

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Doesn't really matter price wise, safety wise, hauling wise(cant go to dump and say hey this is just 1 tree), cutting wise, weight wise, btu's of heat wise etc. as same work in bulk.
Just as would not matter to co$t of making a chair from the wood of 1 or both trees is logistic i presented(when could w/o aggravating more).
.
But, please, usually more complex risk as chance of shearing on seam, per less leveraged support each, and also to nonRound.
Codom and separate competing twins as likewise competing/not joining other half is a structural fault/weak seam/less than maximum of single dominant ROUND monolith by the very design of a codom (or roots displacing each other under ground). Either way perpetuates a weak seam/not joining together like ball joint or dovetail etc. but slap and glue job(that can peel apart), and not round. Round is geometrically equilateral all the way across for equal leveraged support thru center any angle as Natural maximum, perfect shape. Now Nature may alter round to oval per weight bearing in normal growth is different story/forsaking the cross axis as anti sway; to specialize growth with finite materials to the loaded axis in oval growth. Then have a long axis produced that is exercised from and then paid forward for most loaded axis.
Codom and twins are generally opposite, each leaning away from each other across not the long axis of individual oval but the short axis, of less leveraged distance across , rather shape maximized as good anti sway on cross axis of lean where a healthy monolith would minimize against sway to maximize against direct and more constant load bearing by lean.
Co-dominate_Support_Leverage_Loss.gif
Virtual same can happen underground with roots not allowing maximum round nor size due to each competing tree's roots displacing the other's.
.
This size of round geometry view would be true in any substance; this just has tons more loaded leverage.
A proper dominate parent monolith would 'engulf' and bind to and across the 'bulb' of growing subordinate like well flared ball socket joint as each grows in size (no shear line, more like dovetail in that aspect) vs. codom of 2 boards slightly pasted together leaving a shear line. The Natural maximum ends up round monolith and the codom etc. split ovals with weak seam; pulled at worst angle across thinnest axis.

CoDom.jpg


A healthy joint would be more of a ball and socket of a primary and lesser solidly 'welded' as one, w/o a shear line between two separates as seen here from Hurricane Jeanne 2004 Lakeland, Fl. This joint had 2 competing primaries displacing each other.
.
A> is only area usually seen outside the joint, this could look very sound for years unless eye knew what was sifting for.
B>is ONLY cross wise /hold; hold of fibers against joint spreading!!!!!
C>is the ONLY vertical hold of fibers as pivot underneath load
D>is the bark growing down inside the joint, as 'included bark' really guaranteeing no fibers grow across if get this. Would rather bark curdling out the top as tried to grow into joint for more of a signature that fibers were growing across and displacing the bark from growing into the joint.
Bark pushing out top, not feeding deep into as shown; is signature of some crossing fiber support of better codom. Note how the shape of the fallen nor remaining wing are NOT round, and usually bear weight across the thin axis of each separate oval in the competing pair. .
.
Some despair how the tree could have failed us, but in the end looking at the bottom holding fiber as pivot and the very small, not very well placed connecting fibers (B), how did it hang on so long?? Should be the praise !
.
Imagine rigging on the weak/now failed half, and having it fail in hyper rigging load as did in hyper wind load..
The pivotal joint taking the full sudden load with just 2 tufts at positions (B) would not have a mechanical chance..
 
Cricket

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I did a sugar maple with five trunks a few years ago - wasn't very big - they were between three and eight inches, mostly on the smaller side - but awkward even that small. I've always wondered how someone managed a thing like that when it got really big.
 
lone wolf
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When you are taking down a 'tree' that has two or more main trunks attached at the base:
How many actual trees are there???

Some people say, "it is attached at the base therefore one tree".
Others say "each separate trunk requires it's own removal process therefore Trunk A + Trunk B = 2 Trees.

Customers only see one tree because they do not like to pay for two trees when they only see one.

Seeing is believing??? Whats your take?
One double tree is there that's what. You can price it as two separate trees .
 
Stihl User

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I did a sugar maple with five trunks a few years ago - wasn't very big - they were between three and eight inches, mostly on the smaller side - but awkward even that small. I've always wondered how someone managed a thing like that when it got really big.

There is a scheme and order to removing multiple trunks that is determined by whatever structure is under/near the trees.
 
Cricket

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That is the approach I usually take = educate the customer = "You have a large double Oak, do you want the left side or the right side removed?" and we go from there.................

Some customers cannot 'see' why the double oak is more then the single oak next to it.
Sheesh - even if it *was* one tree, multiple trunks can make things much more difficult - maybe the approach is to charge by the *trunk*?
 
Stihl User

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Sheesh - even if it *was* one tree, multiple trunks can make things much more difficult - maybe the approach is to charge by the *trunk*?

There is a giant white oak tree in our town that is about over 70 inch diameter and about 20 feet up the main trunk it sprouts into 4 main trunks with diameters over 25 inches each.

Everytime I drive buy it, I just appreciate the grandeur of this magnificent tree - never seen another one like this of such size with multiple leads.
 
TheJollyLogger

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Sheesh - even if it *was* one tree, multiple trunks can make things much more difficult - maybe the approach is to charge by the *trunk*?
Yeah, if it comes down to a debate over whether it is one tree or two, it seems like something has gone wrong earlier in the estimate process. I mean, following this logic, is the homeowner going to wonder why you charged more for that 60' tall sprawling oak over the house than the 20' tall one in the front yard? After all, they were each just "one tree." This isn't Earl Scheib painting cars...
 
Stihl User

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Sheesh - even if it *was* one tree, multiple trunks can make things much more difficult - maybe the approach is to charge by the *trunk*?

Two approaches to take
A.) Just give a price on what you SEE and the time/labor you need to apply for said work to be completed.
B.) Interact with the customer: Your tree has multiple leads - do you want the whole tree down or just the two leads over the house/wires/shed/yard etc.
The customer may then ask for the cost difference between the entire tree or the selected leads or he/she may want the entire tree removed.
C.) Price accordingly to whatever the final decision the customer makes.
 
rabbit box

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Doesn't really matter price wise, safety wise, hauling wise(cant go to dump and say hey this is just 1 tree), cutting wise, weight wise, btu's of heat wise etc. as same work in bulk.
Just as would not matter to co$t of making a chair from the wood of 1 or both trees is logistic i presented(when could w/o aggravating more).
.
But, please, usually more complex risk as chance of shearing on seam, per less leveraged support each, and also to nonRound.
Codom and separate competing twins as likewise competing/not joining other half is a structural fault/weak seam/less than maximum of single dominant ROUND monolith by the very design of a codom (or roots displacing each other under ground). Either way perpetuates a weak seam/not joining together like ball joint or dovetail etc. but slap and glue job(that can peel apart), and not round. Round is geometrically equilateral all the way across for equal leveraged support thru center any angle as Natural maximum, perfect shape. Now Nature may alter round to oval per weight bearing in normal growth is different story/forsaking the cross axis as anti sway; to specialize growth with finite materials to the loaded axis in oval growth. Then have a long axis produced that is exercised from and then paid forward for most loaded axis.
Codom and twins are generally opposite, each leaning away from each other across not the long axis of individual oval but the short axis, of less leveraged distance across , rather shape maximized as good anti sway on cross axis of lean where a healthy monolith would minimize against sway to maximize against direct and more constant load bearing by lean.
Co-dominate_Support_Leverage_Loss.gif
Virtual same can happen underground with roots not allowing maximum round nor size due to each competing tree's roots displacing the other's.
.
This size of round geometry view would be true in any substance; this just has tons more loaded leverage.
A proper dominate parent monolith would 'engulf' and bind to and across the 'bulb' of growing subordinate like well flared ball socket joint as each grows in size (no shear line, more like dovetail in that aspect) vs. codom of 2 boards slightly pasted together leaving a shear line. The Natural maximum ends up round monolith and the codom etc. split ovals with weak seam; pulled at worst angle across thinnest axis.

CoDom.jpg


A healthy joint would be more of a ball and socket of a primary and lesser solidly 'welded' as one, w/o a shear line between two separates as seen here from Hurricane Jeanne 2004 Lakeland, Fl. This joint had 2 competing primaries displacing each other.
.
A> is only area usually seen outside the joint, this could look very sound for years unless eye knew what was sifting for.
B>is ONLY cross wise /hold; hold of fibers against joint spreading!!!!!
C>is the ONLY vertical hold of fibers as pivot underneath load
D>is the bark growing down inside the joint, as 'included bark' really guaranteeing no fibers grow across if get this. Would rather bark curdling out the top as tried to grow into joint for more of a signature that fibers were growing across and displacing the bark from growing into the joint.
Bark pushing out top, not feeding deep into as shown; is signature of some crossing fiber support of better codom. Note how the shape of the fallen nor remaining wing are NOT round, and usually bear weight across the thin axis of each separate oval in the competing pair. .
.
Some despair how the tree could have failed us, but in the end looking at the bottom holding fiber as pivot and the very small, not very well placed connecting fibers (B), how did it hang on so long?? Should be the praise !
.
Imagine rigging on the weak/now failed half, and having it fail in hyper rigging load as did in hyper wind load..
The pivotal joint taking the full sudden load with just 2 tufts at positions (B) would not have a mechanical chance..
 
rabbit box

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The fundamentals of General Tree Work by G.F. Beranek. Page 310-314 Falling Codominant Trees. Falling a double broadside, falling a double with the union, sliding a double apart, ripping and falling a double apart, and falling a pair or more. Rip and slide apart and rip and fall away illustrations. Broad ways and with the union illustrations. Face and fall both and rip to trip illustrations.
 
Cricket

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Yeah, if it comes down to a debate over whether it is one tree or two, it seems like something has gone wrong earlier in the estimate process. I mean, following this logic, is the homeowner going to wonder why you charged more for that 60' tall sprawling oak over the house than the 20' tall one in the front yard? After all, they were each just "one tree." This isn't Earl Scheib painting cars...
Same mindset that lets people watch me wrassle with a crazy horse, and say "You couldn't pay me enough to do that!" - and then ***** about the price...
 

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