Uneducated consumers

[mckeetree]

Several months ago I attended a little Q&A meeting sponsored by a local insurance agency that was geared toward contractors. Homeowners or anybody else were welcome to attend and the turnout was pretty small, just a few folks. I know insurance laws vary from state to state but In Texas the insurance industry has managed to define "contractor" and "employee" a little better. The liability portion of homeowner policies in Texas no longer have to cover a "contractor" if he or his employees are injured on the homeowners property. I had known this for some time but it is one of the things the speaker at the meeting brought out. Also, if they don't meet the definition of contractor (in other words no business license, not a corp. or LLC, no DBA statement on file, no tax number, no schedule C, no nothing, etc.) they can be classified as a employee. And the liability portion of homeowner policies does not necessarily cover employees either. It's like one lawyer in Tyler, Texas said to a homeowner concerning a Hispanic guy that fell out of a tree.."You say he is not an employee huh? Well he is not in business, at least in any capacity that defines a business, and you "employed" him to trim a tree. What else would you call him?" Texas is the only state that workers comp is not mandatory and we are one of the few small tree services that carry it. The guy speaking at the meeting told me I should inform would be clients that their homeowners may opt out in the event of an accident and use that as a sales tool when we mention we carry workers comp. I have tried it and people just get freaking mad. I even have some material I can leave with them to read and that seems to put them off. One guy today started screaming "YAAAAA...my homeowners covers anything that happens here..YAAAAA...nobody can touch me no matter who I hire. I wish the insurance industry would get the word out to consumers about what their homeowners covers because 99.9% of them think it covers anything and everything.

 

[Grouchy old man]

The liability portion of homeowner policies in Texas no longer have to cover a "contractor" if he or his employees are injured on the homeowners property.

Is it possible for a HO to get additional coverage to cover contractors and employees and that's what that guy was yelling about? I would also think in a state that does not have mandatory WC requirements any HO policy should be required to provide that coverage. What is your state thinking?? :msp_thumbdn:

 

[stltreedr]

Im with you here. Its tough to explain anything to the knowitall homeowner and when it comes to their money
.. fugettaboutit. Some people are receptive, especially if they're business owners or if they have done a little research. A lot of people are strictly looking for the lowest price period, no matter the cost.

 

[mckeetree]

Is it possible for a HO to get additional coverage to cover contractors and employees and that's what that guy was yelling about? I would also think in a state that does not have mandatory WC requirements any HO policy should be required to provide that coverage. What is your state thinking?? :msp_thumbdn:

You can get umbrella coverage that would cover anything but most are geared to kick in at about $250,000 or more. This State ISN"T thinking or it would have made WC mandatory a long time ago. I guess they are afraid they will upset the illegal aliens.

 

[TreeGuyHR]

WC mandatory in OR -- and the rates suck.
$13.66 per 100 hrs for "tree work" , which includes anyone on the site, climbers and groundies, when tree work is being done.

Only around $3.50 per 100 hrs for "landscaping" where I put hrs for cleaning up the shop or assisting with field work for consulting.

I am going to get more complicated, in splitting out the hrs in the day spent for loading, unloading, driving, and breaks -- in the winter, the max actual work hrs in an 8 or 9 hr day are only around 5 - 6 hrs., but I have been paying at the $13.66 rate for the whole day door to door. I am also getting audited by SAIF (OR workmens comp) --- wtf?

 

[2treeornot2tree]

Wc in Pa is $9 per hundred for a landscaper, and $40 per hundred for a tree worker.

 

[mckeetree]

The thing about it in Texas is it is not mandatory, so all the brown boys, hacks and little hit and miss outfits don't carry it. I can't let my guys go with coverage. What if one gets hurt? I just want an even playing field.

 

[Grouchy old man]

The thing about it in Texas is it is not mandatory, so all the brown boys, hacks and little hit and miss outfits don't carry it. I can't let my guys go with coverage. What if one gets hurt? I just want an even playing field.

Good for you! What happens if someone is hurt and there is no coverage either from the employer or the customer's HO policy is that you both get sued and that will be for the actual medical expenses plus loss of income, disability and anything else the schyster lawyer can get you for. The HO can wind up losing his house and you your business and maybe even your house too if negligence is proven. This is serious stuff which is why I can't see your state being so hands off about it.

 

[mckeetree]

This is serious stuff which is why I can't see your state being so hands off about it.

Legit businesses in Texas have tried for years to get this state up to speed as far as WC. We are the ONLY state where it is not mandatory. You can see why homeowner insurance underwriters want to distance themselves from the problem. I mean think about...some guy pays $1,200 a year for his homeowners ins. and then has four or five untrained jackrags climbing around in his trees and the company that had underwritten the homeowners ins. has to be responsible for them? I would want away from that deal too if I were them.

 

[mckeetree]

So your answer is to lobby for more government, to protect us.


WC is a huge rip off.


If the fool homeowner hired them then why shouldn't he be responsible for his own stupidity?


In Georgia if you have more then three employees WC is required.

I'm not for more Government but I would like to see a more even playing field in Texas. I have to carry WC because I have too much to lose, characters that don't...don't. It makes for unfair competition (and I can already hear your comeback on that one.) The fool homeowner IS responsible but if he had hired us in the first place he wouldn't have anything to worry about.

 

[lxt]

I'm not for more Government but I would like to see a more even playing field in Texas. I have to carry WC because I have too much to lose, characters that don't...don't. It makes for unfair competition (and I can already hear your comeback on that one.) The fool homeowner IS responsible but if he had hired us in the first place he wouldn't have anything to worry about.

I hear ya & thats why I went in the direction I went in! its a tough call out there now..........more Govt to make the playing field equal or lower your standards & take the chance along with your competitors? its screwed up!!!

untill the economy comes back & the home owners get so shafted by their cheapness, I dont see much hope for the self employed, of course there are those with such a low standard of living that to make $100 a day is good money......in the end we pay for em anyway, Hell..........just heard unemployment contributions are going up for employees & employers cause certain states borrowed so much to keep their UE claims solvent that we the legal workers have to pay for the 2-3yr extended vacation people got! Love it.



LXT..........

 

[mckeetree]

I hear you about having too much to lose but after all, you are the one making the money.

Why shouldn't you be the one to pay the bills?

I didn't make it all in the tree business and I don't want to lose it all in the tree business.

 

[jefflovstrom]

I am glad we don't do residential. The job's we do require too much for hacks to compete.
Jeff

 

[mckeetree]

I am glad we don't do residential. The job's we do require too much for hacks to compete.
Jeff

That would be nice. About all we do is residential and quite a few smaller jobs. I don't even pretend to mess with really small stuff anymore, there is lots of guys around here that seem to have a major hardon for little bitty jobs and we get out of their way and let them at them. Not counting PHC, if it's less than $750 or so it's better we leave it alone. I went to look at this little pissy job today, should have been about a $875 job, and he had some illegal aliens rolling in there to bid while I was talking to him. I told the guy in all honesty I didn't want to fool with his deal. He was one of those that kept saying over and over "Now, I'm just going with cheapest price...I'm going with the cheapest price now...so be careful what you quote. Be careful what you quote." There was no use for me to mention WC on that deal...he had people in there to bid that didn't even have ins. on the old hull of a car they rolled up there in, he wouldn't have been interested in our WC.

 

[jefflovstrom]

That is tough, but you are still doing the right thing.
Jeff

 

[Broken Branch]

I hear you! We are in Ohio, have wc, and in our area, one out of ten or so companies actually do. And yes, it is mandatory! Been trying to figure out a good way to inform customers for awhile, some receptive, others not because your not the cheapest. Don't know about your area, but lots of tree hacks here have landscape ins. that covers 10% or less tree work cause its less than half the price of tree service coverage, and all they do is trees. Kinda hard to price competitive in these situations. Gotta love the "pros" on Craigslist type sites with pics of blatant osha violations, but that's another post:msp_angry: be safe!!!

 

[jefflovstrom]

It is about marketing.
Ya'll choose your customer's.
Jeff:msp_tongue:

 

[mckeetree]

It is about marketing.
Ya'll choose your customer's.
Jeff:msp_tongue:

That comment has some merit.

 

[Broken Branch]

Yea! Started screening customers a few yrs ago. If they start out with I'm looking for the cheapest after you show up for an estimate and you just start to leave, it makes them question why, sometimes they listen to you then! Hardest thing to start doing, walking away from work, but seems to save many headaches in the future! These customers usually end up being the worst to please, slow paying, etc.

 

[imagineero]

Lack of education is part of it, insurance/licensing laws vary by area. Where I'm at, currently you do not require any type of qualification or insurance to legally run a small business. If you are hiring people and they are employees and not sub contractors then you do need WC for them, but you are not required to have public liability or any other type of insurance or license. This is changing quickly though.

All good companies have full insurance (WC, liability, vehicle, professional indemnity etc) as well as whatever type of qualification is required in your area to be an arborist. If you have it, show it off. We have it, and don't make a big deal about bashing customers with it, but I always mention it at the end of the quote and give them a copy with the quote. I don't turn it into a lecture, just something like

'here's your quote, and our arb certificate, business registration, liability and workers comp. Everyone says they're fully insured, but mostly it's just talk. Make sure you get a copy from other companies, and make sure they have workers comp otherwise if anyone is hurt on your property you are liable. Tree work is one of the most dangerous jobs in the country, so it happens often.'

I think it does sway some customers. Some folks just plain don't have the money for quality tree care though.

in terms of positioning, this worked pretty good for me;

http://www.arboristsite.com/commercial-tree-care-climbing/211473.htm

Shaun