Vegetable oils for bar lube? Is there really a need for bar specific oil?

[Lewis Brander]

Oil companies, 200 MPG carburetor.

Hello Tree Machine. Yes, Sheep is what we all are, especially if you believe all that the oil companies want us to believe. Ever heard of a 200 MPG Pogue Carburetor designed in 1936? There have been others made in the 40's and 60's, but what happens is the Automotive or the Oil companies buy them up (the designs and patents) and shelve them, from public view and they are never hear of again. Heard where one fellow made a carb that worded well, thought of porducing it on his own. This annoyed the oil companies, so they changed the gas formulation so the gas put through them would ruin those carburetors if they were ever made and put on a car. Apparently the added lead they put in would ruin or cause the carb to have to be cleaned often.

We are at least 40 years behind the times. Fuel cells should have been developed and already in use on today's cars, but NO the oil companies that control the government along with other lobbyist wanted to make the big buck. Well, they did and where has it gotten us. Look at the mess we're in today. They can put a man on the Moon, put craft on Mars, etc and we still blindly drive outdated cars, pay for and put up with the same crap that we have been handed over and over again. Hell, in the begining, when people talked about going Green, others just laughed at them, now people aren't laughing so much are they. I'm no tree hugger, but with all this so called technology, we and the world should be better off than we are today. Bush wanted to build a maned spaceship to go to Mars (I call it Bushes Folly) and I suppose there are those who supported that idea (lots of graft to be made form that project), same with the so called bail out. It would be better to take the money and put people to work designing, developing and building any project that would get us off our foreign dependency of oil. They want $100.00/barrel for oil, well then charge them $100.00/bushel of grain. Problem is that any new developments in technology made usually are made for military use first and gets handed down to the public from there. Billions and billions of dollars have gone to develop military stuff in the name of the goverment and freedom, but that will eventually change. We're going to end up like the Russians with a economy meltdown and then the Russians and the Chinese can laugh at us. Change is needed, now to do it is up to each and every one of us, if changing from bio oil to vegi oil for bar use is one way then do it. It's about time people started using more common sense, did some thinking for themselves and start pushing for more changes to be made. I could keep rambling on, but enough said here. Take care. Lewis Brander.

 

[2dogs]

There's a topic swing for ya.

 

[Lewis Brander]

Sheep, are we all Friken sheep:

Not making any more comments. Why bother.

 

[JONSEREDFAN6069]

Not making any more comments. Why bother.

dont stop commenting lewis. your's was imformative just in the wrong thread.
this thread was about veggie bar oil. i have heard of those carb's too.

 

[Lewis Brander]

Ok, vegi bar oil:

Well, in most of the old saws I have they called for 30w oil to be used as bar oil. I've used the regular bar oil in some of these old saws, but it has to be warmed up or used in warm weathe to flow correctly, even if i open up the oil flow adjusters. The problem with some of the newer saws is that the chain speed is much higher, so maybe oil with a bit of tack in it is better. But for old saws with gear drives and 1/2" chain or older saws with Reed valves that run at lower RPM's the vegi oil would definately work. I've used the vegi oil in some of the older saws and it seems to work just fine with no ill effects. This was pure vegi oil from the grocery store, not the so called fast food oils that have hamburger drippings and frence fry salt in it. Can't see where that would help to lube a bar, don't need to worry about the stuff gelling up in the oil tanks and the salt corroding the saw. Most of the old saws run between 4.000 to 6,500 RPMs, so you can imagine what the chain speed are. The newest saw I have runs at 8,500 RPM, have ported the muffler, readjusted the carb, so it may run a bit higher rpm. but I have used the vegi oil in it. It also has a sprocket tipped bar and have seen no problems with bar/chain wear or problems with the sprocket nose bar,all components appear to be wet or lubricated with the vegi oil. Course I must admit that I don't heat with wood and thse saws don't get used that often. but have used them at my brothers home to cut 18" to 20" Beech and didn't notice any problems with chains or bars ever overheating. Requested some of that Oregon water soluable oil months ago, but haven't gotten a reply from them as yet, not really crazy about using antifreeze in that oil to prevent it from frezing up in cold temps. All I can say is to each his own. If it works for you then go for it. If not go to plan B. Take care. Lewis.

 

[tdi-rick]

Actually, further to what Tree Machine has said re his wifes comments on needing tackifiers, a tribologist (that's the official term for one who designs and blends oils) on another board reckons most all bar oils have miles too much.


The stuff he used to blend was a PAO/synthetic ester/bio-ester, AW/EP additives with a little tackifier. Yep, we are talking a synthetic bar oil :jawdrop:

He was blending it so it'd flow in your cold winters but still be the right viscosity in summer. (it had a very good VI)
Most bar oils are just a Group I oil (very basic, lightly refined, very cheap mineral) with a few AW/EP adds and tackifier.
FWIW, he just buys Dolmar oil from his local dealer these days.

 

[ray benson]

This will be the start of my third year using canola oil in my saws. I empty out the canola and run bar oil at the end of the cutting season. No trouble yet and a half used bottle has been in the garage since last spring. It looks just like fresh stuff.

 

[Tree Machine]

ended up smoking the bar i know it's only a $60 dollar 20" power match but.....

Here we go again.

Yes, because veggie doesn't kill bars; bad oilers kill bars. Abusive and / or extended use of the saw kills bars......... you know I gotta say it..... running dull chain. What else. Hitting dirt, packing sawdust in the bar's guide-rail and never cleaning it out. And time in

These things,


. every body



are what kills bars. Bars are consumable, they're going to wear out over time, regardless of veggie or bar oil or tack.

 

[Randy88]

Some are mixing canola with gas and running it in the saws engine???? I'm not real sure but that might void the warrenty on my new stihl saws not? Given the fact that the last I knew 2 stroke oil wasn't regulated like four stroke oil thats why most manufacturers recommend you use thier oil in mixing when burned in their product or it voids the warrenty. As for the bar oil veggi debate I've never asked about how that affects the warrenty but I'll probably wait until some independant testing has been done by some university trials because I'm waiting for them to perfect the soyoil product to be run in hydraulics and as of yet it hasn't been going too good for the manufacturers. The last time I asked several oil suppliers about chain oil they told me it wasn't a very high quality product in terms of lube quality and basically most oil would suffice of any grade or quality as long as it was clean and the only special additive was tacifiers. He went on to tell me that when an oil wasn't good enough to be used for anything else or something went wrong with a batch and didn't meet quality specs bar oil was about all it was good for, the additives package that are in it depended on what type oil it was that didn't meet quality spec at the time it was dumped into saw oil and not very many batches were the same. There is no regulation for quality on any jug of any chain oil by any manufacturer that I've ever seen that states it meets a certain refining standard or military spec or API spec that all gas and diesel oils have to meet by law in order to be sold. So if it feels good, sounds good and gives a warm fuzzy feeling I'd say go for it. As for the used oil debate do you ever wonder why bar oil is so cheap at some of the chains, some years back some of the recyclers were using used engine oil taking it in cleaning it and recycling it and whola you have bar oil, non grade specific, quality specific and just add some addatives and rejug it and on the shelves it went because it was unregulated. Oil never loses it lube ability it just collects dirt and contaminants and once the junk is removed you have clean oil ready to use again. This is info gained from oil suppliers that I have used for years so if its wrong shoot them not me.

 

[paniner]

vegetable oil?

I'm with the guy who's used motor oil all his life with no ill effects... and it's free, if you change your own oil. I use a screened funnel to put it in the container- just in case- but it's been screened through a pretty fine filter on the car. Bar oil has additives, but so does my car oil- i use semi-synthetic and sometimes a product like STP. Been workin for 50 years- and I think the bar oil is for people who think they HAVE to wear special clothes when they ride a bike, etc.

 

[brucew44guns]

bar oil

With my retirement funds sinking, the spectre of an attack somewhere in the US still a possibility from our enemies, I have a real hard time worrying too much about bar oil. I have always made my own.
I'm in the lube oil business, Conoco and Chevron products. I use "Way Oil", an oil used to lubricate the WAYS on a milling machine, lathe, or CNC machine. I mix about half and half 20 wt and 50 wt for summer use, and straight 20 weight for winter. These are ISO grades 68 (20) and 220 (50 wt). These oils are fantastic to save wear and tear, and they do have a bit of tackiness, not severe though. If you live by a Chevron distributor, it's called Vistac/Way Oil 68 and 220. Invest in a pail of each, you will live a long time before you run out. Conoco's is called "Multi-Way Machine Oil 68 or 220). Fantastic, never had a bug or mouse complain that I was messing up his home.

 

[Randy88]

I've seen the oil after they get done " recycling " and it looks like any new oil out of the jug as clean as can be once the gunk is all removed and on the side of the recycled oil jug is said "recycled" I always figured it meant the jug and my oil supplier told me one day when he saw it sitting there it meant the oil so I asked where I got it from and they said yea its the oil not the jug. I don't know if you own much equipment but now a lot of companies are going to refiltering the oil rather than replacing the oil when work is done under warrenty expecially hydraulic oil thats full of metal they have a high priced filter cart that recirculates the oil over and over and whola clean oil thats put back in and the company doesn't have to put in new oil and its covered under warrenty, case and john deere have both done it for me on equipment I have, they claim they can get any damaging amount of foreign metal out and its still good to use the only thing they can't remove is water, then they put in new. Did you also know new oil isn't considered clean until after its run through the filter??? We do a lot of rebuilding of equipment and have fabricated some pretty high priced hydraulic systems and when the oil for them are delivered the hydraulic company reps always run the new oil through a filter cart and then pump it into the machine because they won't warrenty the pumps and motors if the oils not filtered first and my oil suppliers insist on the same so theres no liability on either part for failures or wear on startup, have done it for years. We filter used hydraulic fluid and mix with new oil that has been bounced around in the back of pickups going to and from jobsites and might be contaminated and thats bar oil and also rollerchain oil on equipment. We believe in keeping life simple good oil for equipment and the odds and ends for chain, seeing how we run through several thousand gallons per year of new and used we kinda deal in volume and convience . Never tried buying 1000 gallons of corn oil in quart bottles before to oil chains but who knows what tomorrow will bring, as of yet I don't know of any major equipment manufactures endorsing veggi oil and still qualifying for full warrenty but I'm sure after reading this someone will prove that wrong. I guess when its good enough to run in a 100 thousand dollar piece of equipment and the manufacturer endorses it it'll probably work oiling a 20 dollar chain. Take it one step further I oil sample everthing I own to get drain recommendations and have never had anything come back that wouldn't run another 50 hours on the same oil and when its good enough to run and lubricate a 100 grand piece of equipment for another 50hours I'd think it could handle 2 seconds on a chainsaw chain even if it wasn't refiltered but I'm sure someone will tear that idea apart too.

 

[eyolf]

I wouldn't even try to use drain oil if anything better was available. I have a Jonsered 621 that was destroyed with the stuff...acids from diesel drainings wrecked the bore of the oil pump. I also have a couple of old Homelites with pitted oil tanks caused by using drain oil.

There are methods to remove the dirt and contaminants: oil recyclers do more than filter, although filtering is probably sufficient for tranhydral, air-compressor oil, and others that don't see combustion by-products. True recycled oil isn't usually much cheaper than regular oil, because of the expense of cleaning it out. They have to "wash" it, treat it with more chemicals to precipitate the contaminants out and "wash" it again, all based on continuous testing for what's in every tanker load of waste oil.

The are oil-recycling stations in my county, but I recently learned that the waste oil is sold to a facility that burns it; there's more money in it as bunker fuel than to recycle it...go figure!

 

[GASoline71]

Randy... you need a "pair-of-graphs"...

Gary

 

[GASoline71]

I'm with the guy who's used motor oil all his life with no ill effects... and it's free, if you change your own oil. I use a screened funnel to put it in the container- just in case- but it's been screened through a pretty fine filter on the car. Bar oil has additives, but so does my car oil- i use semi-synthetic and sometimes a product like STP. Been workin for 50 years- and I think the bar oil is for people who think they HAVE to wear special clothes when they ride a bike, etc.

Dude... used motor oil has gasoline in it... which is a solvent... if you haven't had any problems... you got lucky is all I have to say. I bet all your saws have nice dark stains on them from the waste oil as well...

Lewis was talkin' about usin' "FRESH" clean 30wt oil...

Gary

 

[stipes]

Used the canola mix friday....

Was in the high 40's and I used the 50/50 mix of Stihl bar oil and canola oil...Flowed real good,,and kept checkin for heat on bar and chain....I still wouldnt use it in 60 degree weather,,but for a winter mix,,yes,,,been workin great so far....

 

[Slamm]

Using the veggie oil will work just fine, but the problem is you can't leave it in your saw. After a period of time it becomes the stickiest substance known to mankind and you can't get it off. Must be mother nature's "tackifier", LOL.

Right now I don't use my saws everyday or even every month, but if/when I get back to logging, and I run out of the many gallons of Jonsered and Walmart oil that I have, I will use canola oil, because it works and its cheaper, I would for sure use it over motor oil, because it sticks better, my opinion.

But you can't let it sit in the tank for a month. You have to finish up your last day or couple of tanks of cutting using dino oil to clear out the veggie oil, before storage for any length of time.

For years in the hottest of summers, I have logged using only Walmart brand Supertech, which is just about the cheapest crap you can put in the oil tank, and I have never ever thrown a bar or chain away because it wore out prematurely. I logged a lot with Amish loggers and they would send the "driver" into town to get some bar oil and who knew what he would come back with, well ....... I never ever notice any difference between the various brands from Stihl on down, in how it affected the bar or chain ...... I've used summer in the winter and winter in the summer and never ever noticed anything the would indicate that more expensive is "more" better, and I'm the type that doesn't mind some kinda excuse to use better quality products, but with bar oil I couldn't ever justify it, because there isn't any functional differences in normal to even somewhat abusive conditions.

That being said, I always used Stihl chains and Stihl or GB bars, no Oregan bars or chains that are butter soft and can't take the heat or wear, my opinion.

I use Amsoil Synthetic 2 stroke oil at 50:1 and run modded saws only, but I go "cheap" on the bar oil, LOL.

That is what I do,

Sam

 

[rustyb]

With my retirement funds sinking, the spectre of an attack somewhere in the US still a possibility from our enemies, I have a real hard time worrying too much about bar oil.

I hear ya. However, for me, my personal health comes before anything. Without health, nothing else really matters....

 

[rustyb]

Using the veggie oil will work just fine, but the problem is you can't leave it in your saw. After a period of time it becomes the stickiest substance known to mankind and you can't get it off.
Sam

A few people have commented on this yet I have not experienced this at all.

A couple of my saws only see use once or twice a year...and I never drain the oil or do anything else special. When I pull these saws out from a long hiatus, I do some times notice a "stickieness" between the bar and chain. However, this completely disappears as soon as the saw is used and the oiler gets some fresh oil out.

Perhaps some veggie oils can cause problems, I don't know. 90% of the time, I have used straight canola oil with only natural preservatives or no preservatives at all. The other 10% of the time, I used corn, soy and perhaps another type...with natural preservatives or no preservatives at all. My experience is 4 years with four completely different saws.

 

[tdi-rick]

Those that are saying Canola et al are more expensive to produce than mineral based lubes, using vegie oil for bar oil, at least in the case of canola, it doesn't need to be esterfied as it does to produce quality biodiesel. You just use it from the pressing without further refining, just filtering, whereas biodiesel needs to be esterfied meaning further processing involving heat and acids, etc.

Here's the conclusion of a report;

Life-Cycle Assessment of Chainsaw Lubricants made from Rapeseed Oil or Mineral Oil

P.S. Wightman1, R.M. Eavis1, K.C. Walker1, S.E. Batchelor1, S.P. Carruthers2 & E.J. Booth1

1Scottish Agricultural College, Craibstone Estate, Aberdeen, AB21 9YA, U.K.
2CAS, University of Reading, PO Box 236, Earley Gate, Reading, RG6 6AT, UK.

<snip>

Conclusions

The use of rapeseed chainsaw bar oil provides a significant advantage over mineral oil-based chainsaw oil, in terms of Global Warming Potential (GWP), regardless of assumptions or allocation. However, allocation and the alternative land-use assumptions had a large influence on the other impacts studied, as demonstrated by the nutrient enrichment potential results. The most realistic scenario was 70% allocation, with oilseed rape replacing winter wheat (i.e. 70%OSR-WW). For this scenario, all the environmental impacts considered are lower for chainsaw lubricant made from rapeseed oil than from the comparable mineral oil product.

To really improve the performance of Canola, use a high oleic acid Canola and use a specific saw chain additive package at around 20%/volume which adds the necessary tack and EW additives, and importantly for NA and Europe, allows flow at very low temps.
This still gives over 90% biodegradability with very good performance.