sunfish
Fish Head
Not often, only when we need the extra heat. Get longer burn times & less heat with it closed. Stove is a bit too large for our house.
What is the best style stove, EPA, CAT, down drafter, one with a grate
- Thread starter Eric Modell
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blacklocst
ArboristSite Guru
Instead of banning Whitespider he should be required to preface everything he posts with IMHO.
Eric Modell
ArboristSite Operative
The Jotul appears to bridge the gap between old school and modern stoves. There was a guy on the a stove forum that had nothing good to say about Jotul because he had a casting crack and it was going to take a week to get the parts the costumer service department did not want to help him.
Friggin' GOLD!!
sunfish
Fish Head
Very rare to hear a complaint about Jotul, but not everyone is going to be happy with every product. My next stove will be a Jotul and this one will spend the rest of it's years in my shop.
sunfish
Fish Head
Nice photo man!
Jotul is very efficient, I'm burning half the wood with mine than I was with a Vermont Casting we had before...
Bushmans
Smoke Dragon Herder
Del. Dont get me wrong. I am not making light of higher efficiency burning. I was serious in my questioning. I do not have access to unlimited wood. Less wood burnt is time and energy saved.
I hear just as many bad thing as good on these stoves. You can not blame me for being skeptical.
I would hate to spend a couple Gs on a stove and have it heat just the same as the one I have but save me only a small amount of wood.
Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk
I hear just as many bad thing as good on these stoves. You can not blame me for being skeptical.
I would hate to spend a couple Gs on a stove and have it heat just the same as the one I have but save me only a small amount of wood.
Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk
And your point is??
Throughout history, without fail, the minority has been right... the majority has been wrong.
Show me where I'm wrong...
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My grandpa used to say :A man convinced against his will. .. Is of the same opinion still !
Some guys despite being shown every benefit and advantage will insist they are better off with a barrel stove then a new efficient unit . There is such a thing as being " willingly ignorant "
Some guys despite being shown every benefit and advantage will insist they are better off with a barrel stove then a new efficient unit . There is such a thing as being " willingly ignorant "
Bushmans
Smoke Dragon Herder
Now that is something I would be interested in. I remember the thread about the guy who built his own burn tubes. That was a very interesting thread. I would love to have that in my stove. I am very careful about the amount of smoke that comes out of my chimney. There is a happy spot on my stove where it gets just the right amount of air and will burn beautifully for several hours without much smoke. After it burns down it holds those giant cherry coals for a long time and they put off great heat with almost zero smoke.
I've been on AS for a few years now and I have read tons and tons of info on burning wood.
Anyways back to the topic at hand. I simply asked a question about comparative results which I believe would lend a bit of information to the OP original request.
I did not ask to be placed into the war at which a few are engaged in. Just because I questioned something does not make me a non believer. Sheesh if I just agreed to everything I read I would probably be dead already.
I don't do anything without a ton of research first. This stove I have is all I could afford and has saved me lots of dough already.
I have read many threads where folks have had to replace their cats and the price is not cheap. If you have to do that every once in a while it seems as though the cost savings in fuel just went out the door.
Wood is relatively cheap compared to propane and if I had to buy all my wood every year I would still be ahead of the game.
There comes a point in every wood burners life where it just flat out becomes "not worth it"!
This is the info I look for. At what point does it all even out?
I cut wood with a MS391. Is it worth it to switch to a bigger saw because I can cut wood faster hence saving fuel and time? For my application......no I don't believe so.
And pollution? Oh man don't get me started on that. I am a responsible burner and what comes out of my flue is diddly squat compared to the black smoke that belches out of every darn semi truck taking off from a stop light.
Anyways I'm not trying to pick a fight. I certainly don't want to get in the middle of the existing one although I find it entertaining and informative.
Just information is all I'm after.
Eric Modell
ArboristSite Operative
Are you boasting or really burning half, because that is a huge improvement.
My grandpa used to say; "Judge a man by his questions, rather than his answers."
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Locust Cutter
Sawing for Sanity
Bushmans:
Get a properly sized EPA non-cat or a older version and you should be alright. I have many of the issues that White Spider has mentioned running my P.E. T6. It's a fine stove and puts off good heat as long as I'm here to monitor and adjust it as req'd and when the secondary burn is active. If either of the previous caveats are not met, it annoys me. I run a 6" double wall 4 total 45 degree bends and around 30-35' of pipe. If I run it any faster than it likes, or it's really cold out it coals badly, loses heat and is a PITA. I burn 1-2yr seasoned hard wood, generally split to cook wood size. As mentioned earlier, if you run it the way it likes and are there to babysit it, it's great. my burn times run from 1.5-3hrs depending on the load and wood-type. Do I regret the purchase? No. Would I have bought a Jotul Black Bear had I known wht I know now? Yes. I also might have considered an OWB or an older-style heatilator style stove. If you want a lot of heat with an EPA by a 3cuft box or bigger and you'll get it. Either way, outside of OWB's, stoves are considered zone-heaters. A bigger one may suffice as a whole house heater, but that is not their intended function. Mine works as a whole house heater when it's above 30. Less than that and it's supplemental to my Propane forced air. I will likely end up installing a Black Bear to augment my P.E. on the opposite end of the house simply because for me, it's much more economical than the alternatives. I'd love to have an airtight, solid house, but that's somewhere around a 20-30k proposition for me right now and not an option. I'll get there eventually, but it'll be a decade or two. Depending on your house's efficiency, size, stove location, etc if you're over 2000sqft and not perfectly insulated, get a 3cuft box or bigger, EPA or not and you should be alright. If you're smaller or have a darn tight house, you might be ok with a bit less. I'll get flamed with this post no doubt, from the technology advocates, but this is based off of my experience and observations.
FWIW, a good friend has a VC Defiant catalytic stove. He burns Hedge, Oak and Ash. He's heating a 5 year old home that he built, which is insulated well-beyond code. He also has a half open floor-plan on the ground floor. That thing will run you out of the family/dining (informal and formal both) and kitchen rooms which are around 800-ish sqft total and capably heats the other 700sqft upstairs. The basement is always cold, unless the other heater is running. A load of Hedge (already up and running) will last 4-6 hours once the cat is activated. He's replaced the cat once in this time. He also has triple pane windows and very good doors. In his application, it works quite well. In my house, I would likely have greatly different results. Trying to be honest and fair on all sides. I like the efficiency of my stove (except for the coals I'm throwing out) and love watching the secondary burn, which is near idiot-proof. Either way wood is nearly free to me so while efficiency is a concern, it's relative especially when compared to the cost of propane. I will NOT have an EPA stove in the Barn. I will likely continue to run EPA stoves in the house, but the next one will be a Jotul.
I apologize for the novel, but I think that my experience is relative to your question and wanted to get all of the pertinent background info out there to avoid gratuitous flaming.
Get a properly sized EPA non-cat or a older version and you should be alright. I have many of the issues that White Spider has mentioned running my P.E. T6. It's a fine stove and puts off good heat as long as I'm here to monitor and adjust it as req'd and when the secondary burn is active. If either of the previous caveats are not met, it annoys me. I run a 6" double wall 4 total 45 degree bends and around 30-35' of pipe. If I run it any faster than it likes, or it's really cold out it coals badly, loses heat and is a PITA. I burn 1-2yr seasoned hard wood, generally split to cook wood size. As mentioned earlier, if you run it the way it likes and are there to babysit it, it's great. my burn times run from 1.5-3hrs depending on the load and wood-type. Do I regret the purchase? No. Would I have bought a Jotul Black Bear had I known wht I know now? Yes. I also might have considered an OWB or an older-style heatilator style stove. If you want a lot of heat with an EPA by a 3cuft box or bigger and you'll get it. Either way, outside of OWB's, stoves are considered zone-heaters. A bigger one may suffice as a whole house heater, but that is not their intended function. Mine works as a whole house heater when it's above 30. Less than that and it's supplemental to my Propane forced air. I will likely end up installing a Black Bear to augment my P.E. on the opposite end of the house simply because for me, it's much more economical than the alternatives. I'd love to have an airtight, solid house, but that's somewhere around a 20-30k proposition for me right now and not an option. I'll get there eventually, but it'll be a decade or two. Depending on your house's efficiency, size, stove location, etc if you're over 2000sqft and not perfectly insulated, get a 3cuft box or bigger, EPA or not and you should be alright. If you're smaller or have a darn tight house, you might be ok with a bit less. I'll get flamed with this post no doubt, from the technology advocates, but this is based off of my experience and observations.
FWIW, a good friend has a VC Defiant catalytic stove. He burns Hedge, Oak and Ash. He's heating a 5 year old home that he built, which is insulated well-beyond code. He also has a half open floor-plan on the ground floor. That thing will run you out of the family/dining (informal and formal both) and kitchen rooms which are around 800-ish sqft total and capably heats the other 700sqft upstairs. The basement is always cold, unless the other heater is running. A load of Hedge (already up and running) will last 4-6 hours once the cat is activated. He's replaced the cat once in this time. He also has triple pane windows and very good doors. In his application, it works quite well. In my house, I would likely have greatly different results. Trying to be honest and fair on all sides. I like the efficiency of my stove (except for the coals I'm throwing out) and love watching the secondary burn, which is near idiot-proof. Either way wood is nearly free to me so while efficiency is a concern, it's relative especially when compared to the cost of propane. I will NOT have an EPA stove in the Barn. I will likely continue to run EPA stoves in the house, but the next one will be a Jotul.
I apologize for the novel, but I think that my experience is relative to your question and wanted to get all of the pertinent background info out there to avoid gratuitous flaming.
Locust Cutter
Sawing for Sanity
My buddy's VC eats less wood for the same heat than my P.E consumes, but that is more of a function of the cat. I don't think his stove puts out that much more heat than mine, BUT his house allows much less cold air in to mitigate the gains than mine does so it feels like his puts out more.
Bushmans,
It sounds like you have a pretty efficient stove and would not find a great deal of improvement in a newer type. The amount of wood you are loading, the time frame you are dealing with, and results that you get are basically identical to my system with a secondary burn stove.
Now I dont have all the answers and dont claim to, and only have personal experience with several models of stoves, so can only make judgements from those experiences. To answer your question, could I get the same results with 3 splits in a modern stove: NO.
Ron
It sounds like you have a pretty efficient stove and would not find a great deal of improvement in a newer type. The amount of wood you are loading, the time frame you are dealing with, and results that you get are basically identical to my system with a secondary burn stove.
Now I dont have all the answers and dont claim to, and only have personal experience with several models of stoves, so can only make judgements from those experiences. To answer your question, could I get the same results with 3 splits in a modern stove: NO.
Ron
Steve NW WI
Unwanted Riff Raff.
Not half here, but 60% is a good honest number, based on a (colder than average) year of use.\
I'm working on a pic tutorial of just how difficult it is to run an EPA secondary burn stove. I let it out today, and just restarted it. I'll have pics of each adjustment, with times on em. I'll probably have to do the same with a "hot reload" over coals, as that's how I usually use it from Dec-Mar. It just happened to be warm today, so I let the fire slide. 66.5° in the basement when I came in tonight. 26° outside currently, and dropping.
Again... that depends on how you define "efficiency".
If you're all about "efficiency" why aren't you pulling your trailer with a Prius, Jetta or Focus?? Oh... I see, even though your truck uses twice the fuel, it's a better choice because it gets the job done faster... it may not be as "fuel efficient", but it is a more "efficient" trailer pulling machine. And I bet you'd "make light" of it if someone suggested using a Prius to pull your trailer.
If you're all about "efficiency" why aren't you cutting firewood with a crosscut saw and splitting it with an axe?? Oh... I see, the gasoline powered equipment allows you to get more done per hour... even though the gasoline powered equipment does use fuel, it's a more "time efficient" way of doing things. And I bet you'd "make light" of it if someone suggested going to all hand-powered tools.
If you're all about "efficiency" why aren't you cutting your grass with one of those little rechargeable electric push mowers?? Oh... I see, screw the damn "fuel efficiency", you ride on your 24 HP tractor to cut grass because it's easier, faster... and a damn site more convenient. And I bet you'd "make light" of it if someone suggested you mow your 5½ acres with one of those.
First of all, "combustion efficient" ain't the same as "fuel efficient", "power efficient" or "time efficient"... and it does depend on how you define "efficiency". What you consider "efficient" ain't necessarily what the next guy will... and it's damn arrogant of you to think he should.
Once again... that depends on how you define "efficient".
Why is it so difficult to believe that a barrel stove may actually be the best choice for some applications, for some people??
Some guys, despite being shown every detriment and disadvantage, will insist you are better off using what they use, doing what they do, walking like they walk, believing what they believe... the arrogance is infuriating.
I don't care what you burn your wood in... and I've never once suggested that anyone should dump their new-fangled appliance, I have not suggested they should not purchasing one, and I have not besmirched anyone for their choice regardless of what it was.
The same can not be said for everyone here... can it??
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zogger
Tree Freak
Pretty stove! Does yours have those secondary things in it, so someplace there is blue or clear flame going on?
sunfish
Fish Head
I never 'boast'...
Yes, I truly am burning half the wood with the Jotul.
The Vermont Casting we had was a wood hog. It also had refractory that needed replacing every few years and other problems. Jotul is really much better!
sunfish
Fish Head
To be fair to VC, it could have been the model we had and not their entire line. We had a Resolute Acclaim non cat from 1998-2008.
