Wood lot management- ideas and suggestions needed.

[2muchgrass]

I'm not certain if this is the right place to post this.
We have approximately 5 acres of wooded property (a small part of hundreds and hundreds of acres of woods) with a pretty heavy canopy of White Oak, Poplar and Cherry. The floor of the wooded area isn't exactly bare but there isn't really a lot of underbrush and water run off looks like it might become a problem. As I am located in the Chesapeake Bay watershed, water run off is kind of important around here.
Above (uphill) the wood lot is a mini-storage facility with inadequate storm water management. I'm working to resolve that but while I'm doing that I thought it might not be a bad idea to remove some of the tallest, oldest trees and replant with something like White Pine or some other tree that will absorb a lot of water. I'd rather replant with a hardwood but I mention White Pine only because someone told me it would be a good one to plant.
I'd get firewood, the wood lot would get new growth and it would create wildlife habitat. At least that's what I think it would do.
Thoughts, suggestions, ideas and pointers to resources would be most welcome.

 

[madhatte]

You're probably looking at a 20-30% thin. You'll want to have a forester look at the site to figure out what the desired future condition of the site is, and how to get there. The state or county should have a contact for that; call around and see what you find.

 

[stihl 440]

Do a select cut down to 16" and let re-generation take its place...the brush will come and so will the saplings. I wouldnt introduce pine unless your not concerened about stand value in future years. Trees will plant theirselves and they have a way of seeding to where that sapling will grow the best....and they will weed out the weak saplings in the future as well. Basically cut it and let nature take its course.

 

[hammerlogging]

Do a select cut down to 16" and let re-generation take its place...the brush will come and so will the saplings. I wouldnt introduce pine unless your not concerened about stand value in future years. Trees will plant theirselves and they have a way of seeding to where that sapling will grow the best....and they will weed out the weak saplings in the future as well. Basically cut it and let nature take its course.

It'd be awfully hard to justify a diameter limit cut especially with no knowledge of the current stand conditions. It also takes zero consideration of the quality of the residual stand, ever thought maybe some of those stems should be culled to prepare the stand for more adequate regen conditions? How about to get rid of junk supressed timber to allow for healthy new growth?

What initially comes to mind is to make sure to document the condition of the water (i.e sediment load) enterring and leaving the property before you do anything, so that you are not blamed for sediment you are not responsible for leaving your property once you begin forestry activities.

Firewooding white oak and cherry and poplar may not be your best value, at all. You may have timber worth some $, atleast the first two logs.

Carefully planning a harvest to consider regeneration, which is not dependent on what size you cut down to, at all, but how much canopy you retain to provide proper light conditions for regen, and protecting your waterways, should be your primary considerations. As well, the quality of the retained timber, its role for future income, and/or other forest management objectiv es, such as wildlife.

Jeez. 16"? Is that the best you could come up with?

The white pine? Well, maybe, Really it just comes down to what is your best option to mitigate surface flow of runoff, during winter and summer conditions, winter being the challenge. There are lots of things going in to this, like harvest system chosen, and its effects on water runoff.

Get some local expertise.

 

[stihl 440]

It'd be awfully hard to justify a diameter limit cut especially with no knowledge of the current stand conditions. It also takes zero consideration of the quality of the residual stand, ever thought maybe some of those stems should be culled to prepare the stand for more adequate regen conditions? How about to get rid of junk supressed timber to allow for healthy new growth?

What initially comes to mind is to make sure to document the condition of the water (i.e sediment load) enterring and leaving the property before you do anything, so that you are not blamed for sediment you are not responsible for leaving your property once you begin forestry activities.

Firewooding white oak and cherry and poplar may not be your best value, at all. You may have timber worth some $, atleast the first two logs.

Carefully planning a harvest to consider regeneration, which is not dependent on what size you cut down to, at all, but how much canopy you retain to provide proper light conditions for regen, and protecting your waterways, should be your primary considerations. As well, the quality of the retained timber, its role for future income, and/or other forest management objectiv es, such as wildlife.

Jeez. 16"? Is that the best you could come up with?

He wanted ideas...thats how we cut stands....down to 16"...that was my idea...never said it was what he HAD to do because i never seen his stand. IM saying that is for a timber sale on the property. Its all about what he wants to do anyway. It doesnt mean he is going to use either of our ideas...no big deal. NEITHER of us knows what it looks like.

 

[hammerlogging]

He wanted ideas...thats how we cut stands....down to 16"...that was my idea...never said it was what he HAD to do because i never seen his stand. IM saying that is for a timber sale on the property. Its all about what he wants to do anyway. It doesnt mean he is going to use either of our ideas...no big deal. NEITHER of us knows what it looks like.

True. And, as a faller, i've done plenty of diameter limit cuts myself, some worked out fine. I symathize with your pragmatism.

 

[stihl 440]

True. And, as a faller, i've done plenty of diameter limit cuts myself, some worked out fine. I symathize with your pragmatism.

They usually do work out...i was just trying to light a spark for him...shootin our style of cutting and stand management...different ideas are meant to be fine tuned. No harm done..none meant.

 

[stihl 440]

Ok just thaught of a new idea...kind of like the last stand we just cut...alot of cull trees....we cut them and sold the bad ones for pulp. Crooked, rotten, catfaced, burled, horseshoed, hollow...bad part of it is most of the bad trees where the cherrys....we cut really nice big trees too. But left the trees that where undersized for timber value, and had potential for the future stand value. That is if your stand has this.

 

[slowp]

Look for a LOCAL forester please. I could tell you to plant Western Red Cedar and Willamette Valley Pine. That's why you need somebody local, who knows your soils, drainage, market and best species. Hopefully, they'll walk the area too. It might cost you some dollars, but you'll get a plan that works, instead of an internet argument.

 

[forestryworks]

It'd be awfully hard to justify a diameter limit cut especially with no knowledge of the current stand conditions. It also takes zero consideration of the quality of the residual stand, ever thought maybe some of those stems should be culled to prepare the stand for more adequate regen conditions? How about to get rid of junk supressed timber to allow for healthy new growth?

What initially comes to mind is to make sure to document the condition of the water (i.e sediment load) enterring and leaving the property before you do anything, so that you are not blamed for sediment you are not responsible for leaving your property once you begin forestry activities.

Firewooding white oak and cherry and poplar may not be your best value, at all. You may have timber worth some $, atleast the first two logs.

Carefully planning a harvest to consider regeneration, which is not dependent on what size you cut down to, at all, but how much canopy you retain to provide proper light conditions for regen, and protecting your waterways, should be your primary considerations. As well, the quality of the retained timber, its role for future income, and/or other forest management objectiv es, such as wildlife.

Jeez. 16"? Is that the best you could come up with?

The white pine? Well, maybe, Really it just comes down to what is your best option to mitigate surface flow of runoff, during winter and summer conditions, winter being the challenge. There are lots of things going in to this, like harvest system chosen, and its effects on water runoff.

Get some local expertise.

Well said.

Look for a LOCAL forester please. I could tell you to plant Western Red Cedar and Willamette Valley Pine. That's why you need somebody local, who knows your soils, drainage, market and best species. Hopefully, they'll walk the area too. It might cost you some dollars, but you'll get a plan that works, instead of an internet argument.

Well said, again.

Ok just thaught of a new idea...kind of like the last stand we just cut...alot of cull trees....we cut them and sold the bad ones for pulp. Crooked, rotten, catfaced, burled, horseshoed, hollow...bad part of it is most of the bad trees where the cherrys....we cut really nice big trees too. But left the trees that where undersized for timber value, and had potential for the future stand value. That is if your stand has this.

There's a lot of wildlife habitat in that new idea.

A good rule of thumb for wildlife habitat is 2-3 snags (standing dead trees) per acre, and some publications will also recommend leaving roughly the same number of downed snags for the bugs. In the end, it's a bug's life

 

[Oldtimer]

There are laws to follow there. Be mindful.

If this were mine, here in NH, and I wanted wildlife habitat and water mitigation.. I'd have 3 one acre clear cuts in the obvious places..nothing creates wildlife habitat like a clear-cut in a hardwood forest. The resulting lush regrowth would soak up the water.

JMO.

 

[hammerlogging]

There are laws to follow there. Be mindful.

If this were mine, here in NH, and I wanted wildlife habitat and water mitigation.. I'd have 3 one acre clear cuts in the obvious places..nothing creates wildlife habitat like a clear-cut in a hardwood forest. The resulting lush regrowth would soak up the water.

JMO.

But an area that small you could be blessed with the "group selection" categorization rather than that awful 4 letter word "clearcut"



Oh, its not 4 letters.

I've been working good regen cuts for a while but am now on more af a thining and I'll tell you, those regen cuts ae a #### ton more productive, and safer.

 

[48"BAR PINCHER]

But an area that small you could be blessed with the "group selection" categorization rather than that awful 4 letter word "clearcut"



Oh, its not 4 letters.

I've been working good regen cuts for a while but am now on more af a thining and I'll tell you, those regen cuts ae a #### ton more productive, and safer.

ANd don't forget the other 4 letter word "deer". If you got them in any sizeable population they are great at screwing up a perfectly good forest manegement plan. Local Forester is def the place to startas they will often have a good idea on DPSM and how that will effect future regen. PA is a poster child state for the ill combo of diameter limit cuts and to high DPSM. ANd beware the term "select cut" can be interchanged with diameter limit cut to the unknowing landowner.

 

[clinchscavalry]

I'm not certain if this is the right place to post this.
We have approximately 5 acres of wooded property (a small part of hundreds and hundreds of acres of woods) with a pretty heavy canopy of White Oak, Poplar and Cherry. The floor of the wooded area isn't exactly bare but there isn't really a lot of underbrush and water run off looks like it might become a problem. As I am located in the Chesapeake Bay watershed, water run off is kind of important around here.
Above (uphill) the wood lot is a mini-storage facility with inadequate storm water management. I'm working to resolve that but while I'm doing that I thought it might not be a bad idea to remove some of the tallest, oldest trees and replant with something like White Pine or some other tree that will absorb a lot of water. I'd rather replant with a hardwood but I mention White Pine only because someone told me it would be a good one to plant.
I'd get firewood, the wood lot would get new growth and it would create wildlife habitat. At least that's what I think it would do.
Thoughts, suggestions, ideas and pointers to resources would be most welcome.

Keep in mind hardwoods regenerate from the stumps. Sometimes (many times) oaks don't do as well and produce inferior sprouts, but most hardwoods do very well from resprouting. In your area, the best quality hardwoods are shade intolerant, so a very clean "clearcut" will help regenerate the most desirable trees. Of course you'll get back what was there to start with, which sounds like white oak, poplar and cherry. The white oaks just won't do all that great from resprouting.

As for planting white pine or any softwood, consider that you'll have to do some sort of site preparation to get rid of the hardwoods first. Pines are not tolerant of heavy hardwood competition, especially when they are trying to get established. Mechanical or chemical removal of the hardwood resprouting will be necessary, and that doesn't sound like a good idea based on your description of where the stand is located.

Someone suggested clearcutting small patches, which is a very good option for regenerating hardwood stands. Not only do you get resprouting from the stumps but you get seeding from the adjacent, standing trees. But when you're only talking about five acres, getting someone to do the work and actually pay anything for the trees is problematic. It's just not a very operable size cut for most loggers.

As for the water quality concerns, it's difficult to assess without seeing the site, but I doubt you'll cause many problems at all with a clearcut in a hardwood stand. The root system stays, sprouts come back immediately, and only the skid trails, loading docks and other places where soil is disturbed is a potential source of sediment and erosion. Also, the "new" trees that come from sprouts, seeds or nuts will be faster growing and healthier than many of the old trees they replace. You could possibly improve air and water quality with a clearcut of hardwood rather than the other way around.

My suggestion is to forget converting the area to pine. Stay with hardwoods, and, by all means, get some advice from a local forester or the state forestry commission folks.

 

[2muchgrass]

Wood lot

Whoa! I learned more in this forum in 30 minutes than I did on the State Forestry management site in 3 hours. The DNR website has way too much confusing and conflicting information. I will indeed contact a forester as suggested.
Run off on this property has always been a problem. There is a fair size stream running through the property which feeds almost directly into the bay. County engineer storm water plans were not adhered to during construction of the facility. We bought the property after construction was completed and the facility had been in operation for several years. Irene showed us some weak spots in water management.
We are of course concerned about the affect our runoff might have on the bay but we don't want to be held financially responsible for the previous owner's mistakes.
We want to stop any uncontrolled run off and when I looked at the floor of the wood lot and saw it was pretty bare, I thought a serious thinning of the canopy would promote under brush, wild life and at the same time earn a few bucks with firewood (or maybe selling some logs as suggested).

I can see that my post might be moving more towards sediment and run off control than harvesting some trees. Should I be posting some other place if it goes that way?

 

[2muchgrass]

Getting a local expert

The more I read, the better getting a local expert sounds. I went to the DNR website and left a little more confused than I was.
I learned more here than I did on their website.
The stream that runs along the bottom of the woodlot is a Chesapeake Bay feeder so I am concerned about run off from our property. The guy who built the place did not adhere to or complete the county engineer's plans for storm water management. As a matter of fact there is a small area off to one side that once had a dozen very tall oak trees which have since died from over watering (or so someone told me) from our run off.
The canopy is pretty dense and it obviously needs some thinning. I'll consult with a local agent and see what he has to say.