Wood Stove Talk

[4x4American]

Howdy all, I want to put a woodstove into a place that's proberly around 1500-2000 sq ft. It has a basement where I'll be sleeping and a ground level floor. It's in the ADK Mtn range it gets pretty cold round there. Even now in april it's still going down into the 20s at night. Anyways, I need to decide on a woodstove. Are the EPA ones junk? My friend has a Fisher momma bear single door at his deer camp and I love that we can cook on it. There is a diesel water boiler there now, but I'd like to keep diesel burning to a minimum.

Anyways, can anyone recommend things such as what to look for in a used stove, what would be a good new stove, are the fisher stoves EPA compliant since their ban on old woodstoves, is single wall pipe for inside enough, is there a new woodstove out there that you can cook on the top that's also big enough unit to heat 2000 sq ft...etc

Thanks!

 

[dave_dj1]

Just keep in mind that stoves were never meant to be home heaters, they are room/space heaters. That being said, I would get one bigger than I thought I needed, it's better to have the capacity and not use it than to not have it and need it. Another thing, the basement will likely be super hot if you are trying to keep the up stairs at a moderate temp.
good luck,
dave

 

[TeeMan]

I don't have a woodstove, so can't comment on how a certain model performs. I have been doing some research on them because I would like to have one down the line. From what I read, you should go with at least double, not single wall pipe inside.

 

[slowp]

I've had non EPA and now have a super EPA--our state made tougher regulations than the national ones. The hard thing to get used to with the EPA stove is that it won't smoulder. Or mine won't. I don't try to keep a fire going all night. My friends do and they had a learning experience when they replaced their old stove with a new stove.
They ended up having to put in a chimney liner and are now happy and they keep a fire going all night.

Other than that, there's no difference except in sooting up the chimney. An EPA stove, when burning dry wood, doesn't seem to soot up the chimney much, which makes sense.

I'm happy with my woodstove and I heat my 1400 sq. ft. house with it. I also live in a fairly mild climate, so it actually heats the house too much. We had a cold snap where the temps dropped into the teens, and my stove did not overheat the house at that time. I do not have a basement or an upstairs, and my stove sits in the center of the house. I've got a ceiling fan to help move heat around because I have a high ceiling in the living room.

If the power goes off and I need to cook, I get out my Coleman stove. I can regulate the burner on it. I have heated up water on the woodstove, but that's about it.

EPA/non EPA they both work.

 

[TheLazyBFarm]

Look into the Englander 30-NC stove. About $650 on sale at Home Depot. 3.5 cu ft firebox, very well rated stove, EPA approved.

You do want an EPA rated stove since EPA-rated = more heat for the amount of wood fed it. After collecting, cutting, splitting, stacking and moving all wood, you'll want every bit of BTUs you can get from it. An EPA rated stove will help with that. A non-EPA stove will just go through wood a lot faster with less heat.

Good luck!

 

[4x4American]

Thanks yawl..so after doin some deciding, and talking with the folks at the wood stove place down the road, I've figured out what I'm gonna get...but I've forgotten the model name it's written on the paperwork somewheres...I think it's a regency...or pacific energy...anyways, yea holy cow the stove pipe costs much more than the stove!

 

[Whitespider]

(GROAN)
If it gets really cold there (like sub-zero) and that 2000²ft house (plus basement?) ain't well insulated with good windows... you flat ain't gonna' be happy trying to heat it with an EPA certified stove. The EPA stoves may radiate more heat per pound of wood, but they do it over a longer time period... meaning less heat per hour (average) over the burn cycle. When your heat demand (heat loss from the home) is high hour after hour after hour after hour they flat won't keep-up with demand during the last half (or so) of the burn cycle.

It's easy to do the math... figuring 8000 BTU in a pound of wood and you load the stove with 30 pounds of wood, it equals 240,000 BTU's.
Figure an 80% efficient EPA stove over an 8 hour burn cycle, 240,000×.80÷8=24,000 BTU/hr (average).
Figure a 55% efficient non-EPA stove over a 5 hour burn cycle, 240,000×.55÷5=26,400 BTU/hr (average).
As you can see, using those numbers, the non-EPA is gonna' give you 2400 more BTU per hour... but yeah, you'll burn more wood. Of course that's assuming you actually get 80% efficiency from your EPA unit, and are only able to get 55% from your non-EPA. I'd bet the real world numbers are more like 70-75 EPA and 60-65 non-EPA... which moves those numbers a bunch (22,000 per hour for the EPA and 30,000 for the non-EPA). Another thing to consider is the EPA units tend to put out a bunch of heat during the first half of the burn cycle that drops off a radically during the last half... whereas the non-EPA tends to heat more evenly over the entire burn cycle. If you have high heat demand (home heat loss) you need an hourly heating rate to compensate... a steady, hour after hour after hour constant heating rate.

The thing is, you ain't gonna' be able to buy a "new" quality non-EPA stove these days... you'd have to be lookin' a a wood furnace, rather than a wood stove. If you go used you'll want to get a quality built stove, the cheap ones are exactly that... cheap junk. If you do go with an EPA stove get the biggest damn one on the planet... anything less than 3.5³ft ain't gonna' be worth the effort.
*

 

[Marshy]

Thanks yawl..so after doin some deciding, and talking with the folks at the wood stove place down the road, I've figured out what I'm gonna get...but I've forgotten the model name it's written on the paperwork somewheres...I think it's a regency...or pacific energy...anyways, yea holy cow the stove pipe costs much more than the stove!

I would personally stick with single wall pipe inside the house and use the double/tripple wall for exterior and going through walls (I think code requires it when passing through walls). The double wall acts as an insulator and keeps the flue gas temps in the pipe so unburnt gasses dont condense on the inside and form creosote. EPA stoves burn more of those gasses that non-EPA stoves that would normally pass up the flue so from the start there is less of a chance of creosote building up. Using the sigle wall inside the house will allow you to get more heat out of the flue before they pass out the chimney and help heat the area. That being said, get a stove pipe thermometer (ask the guy at the stove store) so you can make sure you are keeping the flue hot enough during burns. You shouldnt loose so much heat from the single wall pipe that it puts you in the creosote temperature range, if that makes sense to you... I have about 6 ft of single wall pipe before it goes into my chimney and I get a lot of extra heat from that run of piping. I put a small fan blowing over it when I'm running full tilt wide open in dead of winter with -10F outside. The only other advice you should follow is, burn dry wood.

 

[cheeves]

I'm biased towards Tempwood woodstoves. Been heating houses with one since '77. They are still available around here, and I heard they were making them again in Adams, MA. IMHO can't beat them for ease of use and heat output. Also after it gets cold you don't have to start a new fire every morning. With the "downdrafter' setup all you have to do is put in a few pieces of wood, open the tubes up and whoosh, instant fire and heat! Can't beat them! They're also affordable! Bought my last one for $50, like new condition!

 

[CTYank]

For interior smokepipe, it's not either/or single/double-wall. You really don't want more than, say, 4-6' single-wall. So, from there, you could go to double-wall or insulated. The couple of feet of single-wall does boost overall efficiency.

Notwithstanding Spidey's rants, you can find EPA-compliant stoves capable of a wide range of heat output. What they bring to the party is reduced emissions, which translates to increased efficiency. Prime example: Woodstock Stoves of Lebanon NH. Browse www dot woodstove dot com. Their "Progress Hybrid" is a marvel and a beauty, can be run as a cat or non-cat, 8-80 KBTU/hr output. They have demos in the shop in Lebanon. Very efficient.

 

[Whitespider]

Yeah, let's look close at the Progress Hybrid with it's 2.8³ft firebox... at $3500.oo.

The EPA says it's 81% efficient; Woodstock says it has a maximum heat output of 80,000 BTU/hr with a 12-14 hour burn time... lets use 12 hours.
One solid ³ft of Red Oak at 20% moisture weighs about 50 lbs; if you packed the firebox carefully with splits you may be able to get 100 lbs of wood in it... so lets use 100 lbs. Wood at 20% moisture contains about 7000 BTU/lbs... 100×7000×.81=567,000 BTU total.
OK first, let subtract the 80,000 BTU maximum hour of heat output... 567,000-80,000=487,000 remaining for the other 11 hours.
487,000÷11=44,273 BTU/hr... and that's an average, it'll be much lower than that the last few hours. And think about what happens to those numbers if the thing put out 80,000 for two hours?? Or three?? What if you don't get 81% efficiency in the real world??

Now lets take a non-EPA and figure 60% efficiency, and lets say it will run for 7 hours on 100 lbs of oak... 100×7000×.60÷7=60,000 BTU/hr., nearly 16,000 BTU per hour more (and that's still using average, it don't account for the heat fall-off of the EPA stove late in the burn cycle... and it's still allowing the full 81% efficiency‼).
Yep, the non-EPA is gonna' burn more wood, but it takes more wood to make more heat... no different than your truck uses more gas to make more speed or horsepower. Fuel in to power out is not linear... never has been, never will be. You can get more BTU per lbs from an EPA stove, just as you can drive more miles per gallon in a Pinto... but that Pinto ain't gonna' haul the mail like your truck will either

As much as some of y'all want to believe... the reality is there ain't no friggin' magic... and no new-fangled firebox can rearrange the laws of physics.
There are times when the Pinto may make the best sense to drive, other times it flat ain't...
To say that an EPA certified stove is always the best choice for everyone and every home... is like saying the Pinto is the best set of wheels for every driver and task. Sometimes the best choice is raw, unadulterated horsepower...
*

 

[peakbagger]

IMHO, for a hunting camp/cabin, buy a good used stove. EPA stoves are quite fussy about wood moisture while the older stoves are far more flexible.

Alternatively, a nice in between option is a Vermont Elm Woodstove, its a work of art, you will either love it or hate it. Its not EPA approved (mostly due to the cost of certification). It is capable of running less than dry wood.
http://www.vermontironstove.com/