Your opinions on this bur oak, please

[Gopher]

This is a 45" dbh bur oak near Green Lake, Wisconsin. As you can see, it has an old wound, followed by two new cracks after we experienced 75 mph winds in September. The client said, "It's got to be older than the hills, and I don't want it to go down during my watch!"

The tree is about 50 feet tall, with an average crown spread of about 90 feet. (Sorry, I lost the two pictures of the entire tree - I need a new camera.)

A number of questions for all of you:
1. Is it worth mitigating? I like to save trees when possible, but...
2. It is at the back edge of the property; will the cost be prohitive?
3. Since the limbs are so close to the ground, if the tree gradually cracked apart, wouldn't it stay alive in a different form?
4. If cabled, how many places?

It is a unique tree, with no targets should it fail; therefore, there is room for error.

Thank you in advance for your input.

 

[rfwoodvt]

Any Targets? if not then why not do just enough to keep it from blowing apart.

Dan is right, death and falling apart are natural to the tree...I would be "right" to enjoy the odd, but beautiful final acts of this oak.

With out actually being able to touch this tree for myself I'd be hard pressed to recommend climbing it with that crack...who knows what root issues are also going on.

Just my 2 cents worth...

 

[Gopher]

My sentiments exactly...

I feel the same way about the beauty of this tree. Nature looks interesting as it changes from life to death. I would like to solicit a few more comments, as I wanted back-up opinions to share with this person. More convincing than just my own opinion...

You are absolutely correct; I haven't gotten into the tree, and I don't plan on it either.

Thank you.

 

[treeseer]

Boooooooooooooo!!!

I can tell it's Halloween :umpkin: /Day of the Dead season; you guys are so morbid you're giving me the creeps! Lord Voldemort's suckled out your arboricultural feelings, I fear.

"The client said, "It's got to be older than the hills, and I don't want it to go down during my watch!" It is at the back edge of the property.

1. The client is strongly committed to keeping it. The fence is a target, the neighbor's property is a target; you death-eaters overlooked these important details. Gorily Glorying in this giant's demise is not an option.

2. I'd climb the vertical trunk; it's the other that's failing. Lash em together with a bull rope if you're that concerned. 2 steel cables above that kiss will likely keep it standing for your client's watch, and longer. I'd reduce the sprawl ~10% too, even if that proposal arouses the wrath of that other cheesehead. Consider also propping that lower branch with 2 treated 4x4's or something.

I climbed dozens like this in WI while doing my (aborted) thesis on them. A few hundred bucks to cable and prune is nothing compared to the value of this tree--or the expense of cleaning it up when it falls.

"the enjoying of watching it fall apart over time." Nelson, go wash your mouth out with chlorophyll. Halloween's over, guys, let's keep em growin now ok?

 

[stehansen]

It looks like it is too far gone to me.

 

[treeseer]

that tree is suffering from a mortal structural failure.

Sorry to be hard on ya Dan, but it's clear the client has the budget for care becasue the budget for removal is SO much higher.

Please tell me where you bought that crystal ball that told you the defect is mortal. If it is cabled well, it could stand a good while and succumb to other problems. I know there's no bur oaks in GA; how about DE? Methinks you are not familiar with the decay resistance and longevity of this species. If it was a q falcata or nigra or coccinea etc I'd be more inclined to the watch-it-rot program, that is if it was all on one guy's land.

 

[treeseer]

I think you've under bid the job by $500 or so.

Dan

2 short stout cables and a little tip pruning. Propping may deliver the most support bang for the buck. Dave would know what he needs to charge for all that. Thanks Dan for trying to get me the job, but I'd have to charge driving time to WI.

 

[Sheshovel]

I have to agree with Treeco,that Oak is a gonner,you can cable and pin and bolt tell the cows come home
but when that tree decides to go,
no pin or bolt or cable in the world is gonna keep it from doing what comes naturaly.
Its gonna split and fall........ period.

 

[Gopher]

I got a bur in my saddle, but not in my oak...

O.K., now that is bad!

The budget may be there; they own quite a few acres, many horses, etc., but is the expendable income there? I'll find out. I've been paid nicely before by them for consulting, and that shows me something.

The price tag definitely would be more than a "couple hundred bucks" though. Consider that I have been back there twice already (although it is only 5 minutes from my house), and no matter which method of surgery is done there is some expense there; time in the tree both pruning and bracing and cabling...I don't see it being done for less than six or seven C notes.

One can drive a pick-up to it (no turn around for a ways), and the neighbors property isn't really a target as there are branches etc from both sides of the fence leaning both ways, and the "prairie" shall we say is used primarily for hunting.

I'm going to come up with a figure for them soon; if I'm going to do something on the tree I should probably do it prior to ice and snow...

Good discussion. I suppose "Easter" would be a better holiday for saving an old knarly bur oak versus All Souls and Halloween!

Thank you. I will be out of town (in Rockville Maryland for a wedding), and will update on customer response sometime next week.

 

[Sheshovel]

The reason I say that if that tree decides to go ,no bolt cable or fix will hold it comes from me seeing huge old oaks like this(not near as damaged as this one)fail even after such "fixes"have been used to try and save them.They tend to be so heavy and powerfull,nothing can hold them when they go they go!
I live in Oak country and have read alot of the California Oak Society's information.I have been working and living around these tree's for 15 years.So I am speaking from experience here.
My opinion is just that..an opinion I am not a certified Arborist,I am just a lowly Landscaper,that has done quite a bit of reading,and spent some years looking at all kinds of these trees.California Oaks are somewhat different than other states Oaks because they have adapted to dry hot summers with no water.In fact if you apply summer water to a California Oak..You can kill it within 5 years.
So your Oaks may be different that the ones here.
But I do know a mortaly damaged tree when I see one and won't attempt to make a client believe any different reality than the real one about their tree.

 

[Tree Wizard]

No real targets. Owner wants to save. Seems simple to me. Two to four cables and three or more bolts. Not seeing the whole tree, but knowing bur oaks, perhaps a dead wooding would take enough weight off it. I hate to take leaf surface off old trees if I don't have to.

Bur oaks will live pretty near forever if they don't get oak wilt and/or two-lined chestnut borers. I know of several 200 yr old plus burs that you can "see through" from several directions, and have been able to for years.

 

[Gopher]

Opinions of the expereinced and educated

All learned opinions are of value. We all here care about trees, and want to offer to our clients the best advice in assisting to manage their trees.

I bring up the Wye Oak. Yes, it went in 2002, but it lived roughly 440 years before failing. There was hundreds of feet of cable in it holding it together; then it just tipped over. I would like to know how many years past after the first cable was added; I would like to think there were some good decisoins made on that tree that allowed many more people to enjoy it before it fell.

We need people that want to push the envelope. What is too much money on a tree for one, is nothing to another.

My opinion on this one is that, first of all, I wouldn't prune any live wood from it, only deadwood, and then cable in many places and I like the idea of "propping" the lower limbs from below. Now here is where I'll need some advice!

It will be difficult to figure out an estimate for these people, but as long as I make something (My Three Sons are starting to eat me out of house and home!), then we all benefit.

I'll try and remember to get some pictures of the old, cracked sugar maple tree I cabled a couple of months ago by our little town's bank. I took all of the dead wood out, and did a slight canopy reduction on the portion over the street. I thought I was going to get hung when passersby incorrectly guessed that I was going to remove the tree! This tree isn't in the greatest shape, but it did withstand 75 mph winds right after that, and many other trees near it, didn't.

Hey, any of you close to Green Lake, WI want to look at it, and many of the other large trees in the area, look me up. We'll climb.

Out East I go - I'll get word here after I talk to the bur oak owner...

 

[Gopher]

Location?

Treewizard: you are in SE WI - you close by?

JPS comes up and works here. By the way - no comment here from the tall boy; pipe up John!

Over.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I agree with keeping it alive. We've talked about it on the phone, but it looks worse then I pictured.

Steel cables with through bolts and threadded rod in the trunk.

Then I would have them fence off the entire target zone, to include the neighbors if possible. Then see if they can cultivate some trees from it to start replacements.

Weight reduction prunning on burs is problematic, because of how stout the limbs are. I still might recomend some on the weak side, but would have to look t it. The key would be to keep a fair number of terminal buds on it though. This would be a case where larger wounds may be nessesary.

For the rodding you would need 2 ships augers and weld an extention onto one of them so you are sure to get all the way through.

Are you close enough to power to plug a high torque drill in?

 

[treeseer]

Weight reduction prunning on burs is problematic,...The key would be to keep a fair number of terminal buds on it

Bingo! That nailed it. Mr. Maas, are you taking notes?