Exhaust Delayed Scavenging

Arborist Forum

Help Support Arborist Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Chris-PA

Where the Wild Things Are
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
10,090
Reaction score
8,744
Location
PA
The concept is pretty straightforward: The exhaust port opens first and cylinder pressure starts to drop as gas flows out. But the transfers open quickly after and there is still residual pressure in the cylinder. If this pressure exceeds the case pressure then exhaust will flow down the transfers, and the arrival of the fresh charge will be delayed until this exhaust gas is pushed out of the transfers.

Some time ago there was a bit of controversy about this topic in a 661 thread (of course), as Stihl had released a document claiming the 661 incorporated this technology. My thought at the time was it probably did to some extent, as all chainsaw engines will likely have some of that going on, but that it was a typical case of Stihl marketing putting a fancy name on normal stuff (i.e. "Intellicarb"). I also though that if you wanted to enhance this effect you could alter the port timing in fairly obvious ways - although it would likely not be optimum for power.

Recently I came across an engine that did exactly what I was thinking about - it's a garden variety 42cc Poulan engine from shortly before they went with the present strato design. This saw used a very restrictive cat muffler. Here is the timing:
Port Timing Jonsered 2137 Stock-800.png
The exhaust is fairly high for a stock saw, and it has only 14deg of blowdown. The intake duration is pretty short, which provides a lot of case (primary) compression. So what happens is that the exhaust opens into a restrictive muffler while the cylinder pressure is still high, and the transfers open very shortly after. Because of the restrictive muffler you'll get a high pressure pushing exhaust down the transfers, and I assume the big case compression angle is to make sure it will eventually be overcome.

If this were how it worked then you might expect to see a lot of exhaust deposits in the transfers - and indeed it has that. These are open transfers so the side of the piston is exposed as well. I had already started cleaning up the piston before I thought to take these pictures:
IMG_0622-800.jpg IMG_0625-800.jpg
IMG_0618-800.jpg
IMG_0619-800.jpg
There are basically exhaust deposits all over the bottom end of the engine like it were a muffler. This is a non-plated engine and is in good shape other than the carbon, so I don't think it's a sign of abuse.

Fortunately they canned this turd in favor of the fresh air strato design. The good part for me is that the transfers are already high, so I can raise the exhaust and not have to bother with them. On the other hand, the combustion chamber is clearly larger than on older cylinders, and the transfer runners are narrower/lower volume - that last is probably not a bad thing.
 
Well, since this thread never really went anywhere I guess I'll turn it into a build thread. This engine has considerably lower volume transfers (20-25% less than the older designs), and I wanted to see how that ran. Unfortunately they also increased the volume of the combustion chamber. This is the older design, which is a small dish:
IMG_2295-1024c.jpg

And this is the new:
IMG_2294-1024c.jpg

I'm guessing that they wanted to unshroud the plug for better propagation of the flame front, but they sure added a lot of volume doing it.

The squish was around 0.040", so I cut the cylinder by 0.020". Here is my setup on the lathe - that's a big cab mount bushing:
IMG_2272-1024.jpg
IMG_2273-1024.jpg

I measured and marked the thickness on each corner before cutting to make sure I got it even. Here is the base after cutting and the bearing pockets ground out with a Dremel sanding drum:
IMG_2310-1024.jpg

The transfers had this strange deflector at the bottom, which I removed:

IMG_2301-1024.jpg
 
Since this is an unplated Poulan engine that's not worth anything (and I don't need it anyway), I took the ports out to 60% of the bore, which is more than I usually do. I purposely left as much of the step on the exhaust port as I could:
IMG_2304-1024.jpg
IMG_2309-1024.jpg

The intake can't be dropped too far without getting into the impulse port, so I drop it some and cut the piston skirt for the rest:
IMG_2306-1024.jpg
IMG_2307-1024.jpg
IMG_6345-1024.jpg

The intake got some attention too:
IMG_2311-1024.jpg

The squish came out at 0.021" (measured with 0.032" solder). Here is how the timing came out:

Port Timing Jonsered 2137 Ported-1000.png
 
I slapped it into a spare Craftsman A/V chassis. I had to sort out a bunch of things with the old chassis I was using, and do a muffler mod. The carb is a larger WT529 (34/64", up from the stock 28/64"). I gave it about 5deg of timing advance, as I've noticed some of my saws seem to have too much and I've been knocking that back.

It fired up, and I tuned it and had time to noodle a few small walnut logs I had around. It certainly ran nice but I can't say I was all that impressed yet, although I'll have to wait until I can work it more to see how it behaves.
 
The concept is pretty straightforward: The exhaust port opens first and cylinder pressure starts to drop as gas flows out. But the transfers open quickly after and there is still residual pressure in the cylinder. If this pressure exceeds the case pressure then exhaust will flow down the transfers, and the arrival of the fresh charge will be delayed until this exhaust gas is pushed out of the transfers.

Some time ago there was a bit of controversy about this topic in a 661 thread (of course), as Stihl had released a document claiming the 661 incorporated this technology. My thought at the time was it probably did to some extent, as all chainsaw engines will likely have some of that going on, but that it was a typical case of Stihl marketing putting a fancy name on normal stuff (i.e. "Intellicarb"). I also though that if you wanted to enhance this effect you could alter the port timing in fairly obvious ways - although it would likely not be optimum for power.

Recently I came across an engine that did exactly what I was thinking about - it's a garden variety 42cc Poulan engine from shortly before they went with the present strato design. This saw used a very restrictive cat muffler. Here is the timing:
View attachment 482628
The exhaust is fairly high for a stock saw, and it has only 14deg of blowdown. The intake duration is pretty short, which provides a lot of case (primary) compression. So what happens is that the exhaust opens into a restrictive muffler while the cylinder pressure is still high, and the transfers open very shortly after. Because of the restrictive muffler you'll get a high pressure pushing exhaust down the transfers, and I assume the big case compression angle is to make sure it will eventually be overcome.

If this were how it worked then you might expect to see a lot of exhaust deposits in the transfers - and indeed it has that. These are open transfers so the side of the piston is exposed as well. I had already started cleaning up the piston before I thought to take these pictures:
View attachment 482630 View attachment 482629
View attachment 482631
View attachment 482632
There are basically exhaust deposits all over the bottom end of the engine like it were a muffler. This is a non-plated engine and is in good shape other than the carbon, so I don't think it's a sign of abuse.

Fortunately they canned this turd in favor of the fresh air strato design. The good part for me is that the transfers are already high, so I can raise the exhaust and not have to bother with them. On the other hand, the combustion chamber is clearly larger than on older cylinders, and the transfer runners are narrower/lower volume - that last is probably not a bad thing.
Cut out the skirt on the bottom of the piston about a 1/4" where the transfers are located. It don't have much room to pass between the skirt n bearing.
 
Cut out the skirt on the bottom of the piston about a 1/4" where the transfers are located. It don't have much room to pass between the skirt n bearing.
I did consider trying that this time, but wanted to see how the smaller transfers behaved all on their own. Still, lots of other things are different already so I might go back in and try that.
 
Tighten the squish up a bit more. Realistically your probably at .019 or so now. Take another couple thousand of the base. It's small enough bore that .014-.016 should be safe.


Edit: I ran a 5100 for quite awhile that only had .012 squish.
 
Tighten the squish up a bit more. Realistically your probably at .019 or so now. Take another couple thousand of the base. It's small enough bore that .014-.016 should be safe.


Edit: I ran a 5100 for quite awhile that only had .012 squish.
Compared to the extra volume of the newer combustion chamber, reducing the squish a few more thousandths just isn't going to matter much. That's an awfully big hole to fill.

I could cut the chamber, cut more off the cylinder and/or make a popup, but then the transfers would be getting lower and I can't do a very good job grinding them way up in a clamshell with the tools I have.

I am thinking about notching the piston skirt at the transfers though.
 
So are you using the wildthing muffler or the heavy choked up crapsman muff on ur saw?
No, I only use the early 2-piece mufflers. I'll get a shot of the complete saw when I do a video. I'm curious what rpm it will hold.
 
Welded pop-up it is then!

Did you take a compression reading? Higher compression is cheap horsepower.
A popup would be interesting here.

No, I don't have a gauge that's worth much. I agree about higher compression, but that's really higher compression ratio and higher cylinder pressures under combustion at rpm. That's quite different from the pressure you can get pulling on a starter rope. A compression gauge is a maintenance tool used to determine if the cylinder is healthy - it doesn't tell much of anything about performance when running.
 
Compared to the extra volume of the newer combustion chamber, reducing the squish a few more thousandths just isn't going to matter much. That's an awfully big hole to fill.

I could cut the chamber, cut more off the cylinder and/or make a popup, but then the transfers would be getting lower and I can't do a very good job grinding them way up in a clamshell with the tools I have.

I am thinking about notching the piston skirt at the transfers though.
A pop up would be the ideal thing to do. I like the older version clamshell block better than what you n I are working with now. I hate were the ring location pin is makes widening intake I bit.h. . The combustion chamber is frickin huge. If I had a spool gun and a steel or ceramic pipe to fit the bore I'd weld up some of the combustion chamber.
 
A popup would be interesting here.

No, I don't have a gauge that's worth much. I agree about higher compression, but that's really higher compression ratio and higher cylinder pressures under combustion at rpm. That's quite different from the pressure you can get pulling on a starter rope. A compression gauge is a maintenance tool used to determine if the cylinder is healthy - it doesn't tell much of anything about performance when running.
True, but rarely does a static reading of 150 make for a strong running saw, and rarely is a saw that blows 220 a dud
 
I hate were the ring location pin is makes widening intake I bit.h.
Crap. You know, I bet I'm darn close to having a problem there. I'm not used to even having to look at that with these engines, but on this version they've raised the whole intake, and I did see the ring gets into the intake port. I'm going to have to look and see if it's going to hang a ring.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top