O.G. Coastal or Rocky Doug Fir for traditional sash windows in the Midwest?

[Bungalocity]

Hi All and thanks for letting me in.
I'm currently laying connections for seeking out fresh cut old growth Fir, and the distinctions between the Coastal and Rocky Mntn (Inland) sub-species seem very hard to parse when it comes to the durability which has made so many of Chicagoland's 1890-1930 traditional Sash & Storms survive remarkably to today.

I'd spent too much time dealing with the 'reclaimed' market and all the nails, piths, checks, knots and unknown pedigree (build era) from which they came. So to that end, I'm tooling up for mortise & tenon and if you know a sash, the [vertical] Stiles' end grain reaches right down to the sill. After a rain or snow, moisture is revealed when opening the window. Somehow 'not painting' the bottom or side edges was the accepted Standard in hundred of thousands of high-quality builds, and to this day most can be epoxied and filled and consolidated with restoration workflow, giving them another century of life.

Cross-cuts show the Fir's Heart - pink, red, brown and sometimes yellow - on the rabbeting and molding profile and that is the whole smash right there.
So in summary...any opinions on Rocky vs Coastal Fir for replicating? And could anyone really be able to tell the two varieties visually?

Thanks and hoping to support the western US economy and make the best sash replicas in a region of 10 mil. people

 

[Wazzu]

Rocky Mountain Douglas fir would probably have a tighter grain.

 

[Bungalocity]

Rocky Mountain Douglas fir would probably have a tighter grain.

I read that it's a slower growth

 

[kimosawboy]

I would say that in your time frame it was all coastal fir.

 

[Bungalocity]

I would say that in your time frame it was all coastal fir.View attachment 791405

I have read up on the goliathan Long-Bell. And history of Longview, WA. Incredible.

 

[Bungalocity]

I hope the resolution comes out for close inspection. This is likely mid-20's, a Storm which was probably left in place for most of its life. S for stiles, R for top and bottom rails and M for the munition that divides the 2 glass horizontally.

Can anyone guess at all what the age of these pieces were when cut? I'm guessing the lower Rail is the oldest and the Heart intentionally placed at bottom/front edge as that's the most vulnerable to sitting water and snow on the stone sill. I cannot tell what if the others have no Heart or not since I read that heart can be brown/beige or even yellow!

 

[windthrown]

Douglas fir has several sub species. In the Coastal region of Oregon, Washington and BC, they grow tall and straight. In California they tend to be lower and forked, and look completely different. I was stumped looking at them until I looked at the cones. It is very easy to ID Doug fir by the cones. Inland Doug fir is softer and has less strength, as does the more southern types. For that reason PNW Doug west of the Cascades commands a premium over the others for its quality. Its stronger than the other types, and sells for 2x the price at the mill pond. But that is all for smaller new cut 2nd/3rd growth logs. Old growth logs are another thing completely.

Finding fresh cut old growth Doug fir is not easy. All the mills here are set up to cut smaller logs. I live in the middle of the Mt Hood National Forest here and logging trucks roll by my place all the time. Mainly Doug Fir, sometimes alder and cedar. Those are the money trees. Maybe once a year I see a series of trucks roll by here with anything over 3 ft wide DF logs on them. Once in 10 years of living here I saw a set of trucks with single logs over 6 ft wide roll by. I asked about them, and they were all destined to be shipped overseas to Asia. No local mills could cut them. When I lived in Southern Oregon in the coast range before this I never saw logs that size. It was all 2nd and 3rd growth cut there. The old growth stands there were all protected or in legal battles that are still pending. My ex's land (over 100 acres) had stumps that where 12' DBH of DF. They were about 20' high and you can still see the springboard cuts in them from when they were felled. But that was all cut over 100 yeas ago.

One guy here was hauling out old DF logs from the Colombia River a while back. Dunno where he sold it. That is specialty market sky high price stuff. The law came down on him for that though. These logs all belong to the states here and they cannot be legally salvaged. When I was a kid growing up here there were log rafts being hauled by tugs all the time on the Colombian and Willamette rivers. Many of them sank over the years.

 

[ML12]

You probably have coastal. Nice stuff.

They still log old growth here (Vancouver island and central coast), but it really isn't very common and I have no idea where it ends up, as stated above no one has mills set up for this anymore.

Sometimes I get lucky and get blow down OG fir.....

 

[andy]

You probably have coastal. Nice stuff.

They still log old growth here (Vancouver island and central coast), but it really isn't very common and I have no idea where it ends up, as stated above no one has mills set up for this anymore.

Sometimes I get lucky and get blow down OG fir.....
View attachment 793125

That’s sweet!
Man... would love to catch some “lucky” like that.

I do construction/remodels as a living.
Some of the old Dougs we find in the walls and floors that were used as framing members is just amazing.
So many lines per inch... need younger eyes than mind to count them
Often just riddled with nails though.... very different than today.
Cheers!

 

[windthrown]

You probably have coastal. Nice stuff.

They still log old growth here (Vancouver island and central coast), but it really isn't very common and I have no idea where it ends up, as stated above no one has mills set up for this anymore.

Sometimes I get lucky and get blow down OG fir.....
View attachment 793125

Its all coastal Doug fir here, but there are like 23 different seed zones for planting DF in western WA and OR. You need to source DF seeds from the same climate areas or they do not grow well. They found that out after they re-planted the Tillimook fire burn areas with DF in the 1950s and they all grew like shyte. Old grwth DF makes great firewood if it is not rotted. Lots of old growth DF is pretty far gone for quality timber though. I cruised a lot of stands where I used to live in Southern Oregon and it was crap. Far better to log it and replant it. At that age they do not grow much or sequester much CO2 any more. But the greenies all block that. Same with burning in WA state. They insist that slash be chipped and/or left to rot. That leads to methane production which is about 50% WORSE for greenhouse gasses. But no... the greenies and Olympia say otherwise. This next generation is doomed with these stupid ass decisions. Oregon wants to stop all logging now as well, which will just result in MASSIVE forest fires. And MORE Co2 pumped into the atmosphere. But no... no brains in Salem apparently.

 

[ML12]

Old grwth DF makes great firewood if it is not rotted. Lots of old growth DF is pretty far gone for quality timber though.

This one had pretty bad shake in it, wood was solid otherwise. I only cut a couple rounds off and split it. The pockets and veins of pitch were making it a nasty job. Good firestarter tho.

I do construction/remodels as a living.
Some of the old Dougs we find in the walls and floors that were used as framing members is just amazing.
So many lines per inch... need younger eyes than mind to count them
Often just riddled with nails though.... very different than today.
Cheers!

Yeah, I've been lucky enough to get some reclaimed fir and its rock hard. Can't drive a nail in it. Beautiful material tho. Cuts and machines beautifully. Doesn't seem to take finish evenly, but I think that is just a fir thing.