do you prefer leg loops or butt strap saddles?

[Tree Machine]

What made sense then still makes sense now. We've just strayed into other options and in doing so have lost track of the inherent advantages. Why that is, just following the lead of other aerial disciplines that don't do things the way we do. We've shifted more to saddles less comfortable (in all positions, not just classic ventral) that pinch and squeeze. We've learned to tolerate and live with the discomfort.

Bosun seating, which was historically the way things were done, is now the red-headed bastard child of the arbo saddle family. Lost, but not forgotten.

 

[jomoco]

I've designed a rather intricate saddle that allows you to stand up like a man to accomplish your work in the tree, or sit down and disconnect the leg rigging.

I designed it for working off a crane using a spreader bar. It requires very high top custom made climbing boots.

The USAF should pay me huge royalties for my design because it allows a parachuter to stand up and hit the ground running with full adequate blood flow in their legs, rather than hit the ground and breaking their legs because they're asleep!

Invention number 37 as I recall, circa 1995.

jomoco

 

[Tree Machine]

Coolness.

 

[Tree Machine]

The USAF should pay me huge royalties for my design

Invention number 37 as I recall, circa 1995.

jomoco

I second that. You did the work for others' benefit. You deserve due credit and a fair dollar arrangement.

 

[tree md]

I've gotta go with Sunrise. My very first saddle was a buttstrap, the next a legstrap. Next a bosun seat style with central tie-in, then a bosun style with floating bridge.

I was able to test-climb an Ergovation for a couple months, leg-strap + floating bridge.

My rock climbing / caving harness is leg-strap, central tie-in.


For the bulk of the guys out there who I'm sensing have never used a bosun-style saddle, it too has leg straps. However, instead of the forces being taken up primarily by the backs and sides of each of your thighs, and generally pulling up (since your weight is generally pulling down) and in (think 'triangle'), the leg straps on a bosun-style saddle simply keep the support from below in place, from sliding up your backside.

Since the title of the thread is 'leg-straps vs butt strap' I'll refrain from hijacking the thread to share the host of bosun advantages and the why's behind them.

If you're from the side who says bosun saddles limit movement in the tree, please cap it unless you actually have firsthand experience rather than a blind, uninformed opinion based on what you heard someone else say. This is one of the most wrongly assumed opinions that I know of in all of Arboriculture.

I couldn't agree with you more. Anyone who thinks a bosun seat limits mobility has either never tried one or didn't have it adjusted right.

 

[tree md]

I started with leg straps. I'd enter a tree as a bass and exit as a soprano. There was no way I could get comfortable. Then I went with a seat. What a difference! When adjusted properly, and I mean trial and error over a complete morning session, the seat is never in my way and I have just as much lateral movement capabilities as anyone using leg strap saddles. Also, I know someone posted about slipping through the seat. That's goofy. All seat harnesses that I've seen come with leg straps to keep that from happening. The straps do not have to be kept very tight, though, and that's the beauty of the system, for me. I have a Buckingham Traverse. http://www.buckinghammfg.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1629

Back when I started climbing in 91 tree saddles came without straps. I know the Weaver had no straps and I believe the Buckingham came without them as well. It was a year or two after I started climbing that straps became standard issue. I used to cut them off of a saddle first thing when I bought it until I got used to the restrictive legstraps.

 

[Blakesmaster]

Since the title of the thread is 'leg-straps vs butt strap' I'll refrain from hijacking the thread to share the host of bosun advantages and the why's behind them.

If you're from the side who says bosun saddles limit movement in the tree, please cap it unless you actually have firsthand experience rather than a blind, uninformed opinion based on what you heard someone else say. This is one of the most wrongly assumed opinions that I know of in all of Arboriculture.

I don't think anyone on this thread was bashing bosun saddles, just the butt strap ones, which do, IMO, seriously limit mobility in the tree. Personally, I'd like to try a bosun seat someday, they really look comfy.

 

[MonkeyMan_812]

Pinnacle deluxe for me. Very comfy saddle but a little on the pricy side. Worth every penny.

 

[MonkeyMan_812]

I don't think anyone on this thread was bashing bosun saddles, just the butt strap ones, which do, IMO, seriously limit mobility in the tree. Personally, I'd like to try a bosun seat someday, they really look comfy.

You should try them they are very comfortable.

 

[Tree Machine]

Pinnacle Delux. The 'Delux' is the quick-connect buckles, very worthwhile. In fact, I consider quick-connect highly essential. I mean, we make our livings in these harnesses so we're in and out of them a lot. Fast-on, fast-off is absolutely what the Pinnnacle Delux provides as one of the advantages.

Delux also means wide straps on the backside, fat seatbelt-width webbing. Not bikini strap thin and NOT ELASTIC bungee.

.


Monkeyman, do you connect your front rings together with spreader snaps or with a single caribiner?

 

[MonkeyMan_812]

I use two carabiners. I am going to get a spreader snap though.

 

[Tree Machine]

spreader snap

I had the earlier version of the Pinnacle, not the one shown here, but with a feed-thru, feed back friction buckle on the front waist strap. It was secure, but only would loosen to maximum loosenness, but not open up fully like the tongue-style buckle. This meant having to always step into it and pull it up and around you before cinching it down. An annoyance at most, but the tongue buckle is faster and easier. I still use this same saddle as my vacation work harness and when I got it, probably a decade ago, I was apparently a tad smaller. I bought a spreader snap to connect the front rings and it was a quick fix to making the saddle a bit 'bigger'.

The spreader snap is a chunky, heavy piece. Be forewarned. Get one only if it is truly needed.

Day one of owning this Pinnacle saddle, I sat down for a while and using a sewing awl and industrial thread I replaced the thin back straps with wide belting and just got rid of the adjustableness of the back straps. I've found that although my weight has changed, the position of where the butt-board needs to be has not. Also, I replaced the crap buckles with quick-connects. Back then there weren't the cool ISC metal quick connect buckles. Actually, back then there were NO quick connects, so I put in extra heavy-duty plastic buckles, the type that are used to hold scuba tanks in place.

Then I nagged saddle manufacturers for years because this is such a critical and necessary feature. I also nagged for wider back straps.

I'm sure some of you hear 'plastic buckles' and want to scream out against that, but on a well-designed bosun-style saddle, there is rarely any pressure on the leg straps at all, and thus no squeezing, squinching, pinching, pulling or pressure in the inner thigh, lower nadadoidal area. And thus no strain on the buckles themselves. Again, leg straps in this style saddle don't support your weight. You could probably get by just fine with velcro (but don't). The seat beneath supports your weight and the leg straps keep the board positioned where it should be, doing what it should do which is to support your weight from underneath in a distributed manner.

I did this Fastec buckle mod to my next saddle also, again another bosun-style (Versatile) and the buckles still to this day have never have failed. I always enjoyed the advantage of dropping harn, one hand on each of the buckles, squeeze, done. Now that they have nice metal quick-connects I can move out of the plastic era with my next saddle choice.

I'm on Petzl's case now because they're employing a hook-style quick-connect buckle that is anything but quick. They're putting this on their new, upcoming Swing saddle, a bosun version of the Sequoia. I'm begging them to rethink this. Needing two hands and four distinct and separate motions just to release ONE of the two leg buckles..... That's definitely taking a step backwards in my opinion. This is their first true bosun saddle and they're approaching the legstrap issue with a level of bomproofness that spills into the realm of a safety feature that is 'so safe that it is now utterly inconvenient."

I don't cherish the thought of having to take a world-class saddle and having to modify it to be a truly world-class saddle. For 450 bills, I really just want a saddle that works the way it should work. I don't want to fight with it every time I gotta put it on or take it off.

 

[jomoco]

What gives with the stupid little D rings on saddles these days TM?

jomoco

 

[tree md]

Yes, I wish you would get on their case about the small D's as well. I'm using the Mini Boss now with a bosun seat and it is great once you get it adjusted to where it needs to be. However, the straps loosen up and slip through the friction buckles after a little while of climbing. I am working on a way to get them permanently in place. I might have to invest in a sewing awl and some industrial thread myself. I can deal with the smaller straps and the inconvenience of having to step through this saddle but I would really like to see them start putting large D's on their saddles.

 

[Tree Machine]

I don't know. I like them bigger, too. We put more than one thing on there, like biner slings, for momentary convenience. You don't always want to have them on the gear loops around the side or back. Sometimes they need to be right there.

The smaller rings don't allow the fitting in of an additional accessory connector either, as the tolerances are too tight. I have a very strong preference of where and how my chainsaw is attached and hung, or stowed on the hip. With smaller D's this preference gets wiped out and I have to go back to something I already know does not work as well because I've been there-done that already. Now I'll be accommodating my saddle instead of my saddle accommodating me.

Hey treeMD, here's a link for the Sewing Awl. You'll find that it is a pretty minor investment. They now offer numerous colors of thread, get the waxed type, the heaviest stuff they offer. A small thimble spool of this stuff goes a long way.

 

[tree md]

I don't know. I like them bigger, too. We put more than one thing on there, like biner slings, for momentary convenience. You don't always want to have them on the gear loops around the side or back. Sometimes they need to be right there.

The smaller rings don't allow the fitting in of an additional accessory connector either, as the tolerances are too tight. I have a very strong preference of where and how my chainsaw is attached and hung, or stowed on the hip. With smaller D's this preference gets wiped out and I have to go back to something I already know does not work as well because I've been there-done that already. Now I'll be accommodating my saddle instead of my saddle accommodating me.

Hey treeMD, here's a link for the Sewing Awl. You'll find that it is a pretty minor investment. They now offer numerous colors of thread, get the waxed type, the heaviest stuff they offer. A small thimble spool of this stuff goes a long way.

Thanks! I'm going to order one today!

 

[jomoco]

I think one of the the most ignored wear factors that tears the heck out of you, your ropes, boots, pants and everything it contacts, is your climbsaw's bar and chain in all it's razor sharp glory!

A quick connect between your saw's power head, and bar and chain assembly, would allow you to sheathe a 14 inch bar and chain in your leg scabbard? Perhaps even your choice of 3 bar and chain lengths in one leg scabbard?

Hello!

Do stihl and husky really care about safety in the tree, wear and tear on vital life supporting ropes?

How many more expensive sets of wesco boots and climbing pants must die the death of a thousand lashes before reason prevails?

jomoco

 

[Tree Machine]

Back in 2005 I was asking Petzl to incorporate larger D's. I sent them this digitally modded version of their miniboss that incorporates the Petzl Pirhana 8's as the D's. I much prefer steel rings, though, not aluminum.

When I had a fixed-end flipline, I made the right-side ring 'bigger' (so to speak). This allowed optional placement of other kit, as well as the attachment of the flipline. The other option is to use a stainless steel clevis connector to take up as minimal space as possible, keeping what little room's left as available as possible.

Right now I'm running with a dual-ended flipline, so with the safety snap on each end, there's no need for the delta anymore for attachment, but the snap hogs up most of the space on the ring. he price to pay for being able to unclip either end of the positioning lanyard.

Don't give me a hard time about the chainsaw lanyard in this 2nd pic. The image is 7 years old, it was prototype gear, not currently using that, it's long gone. I'm getting by with something far less functional, a simple length of strap with a modded twistlock William.

 

[tree md]

Ha, love the Pirhanas! Great idea!

 

[Tree Machine]

You guys have me going through all these old images.
This is the Fastec mod. I remember sending this to Petzl in 2005 saying please, please, please consider quick-disconnect buckles on your next saddles. I wasn't implying plastic, just rather the convenience and performance and advantage that can be realized with the approach.

Now, all the delux, pro-version saddles have the sweet ISC buckles, but Petzl went and created their OWN VERSION of quick connects, which I will accurately refer to as Still Harder In Truth.

If you're gonna incorporate quick-connect buckles, they really ought to be 'quick', otherwise, why even go there?

(I must apologize, guys.... Petzl wants to make a a couple big mistakes on their upcoming Swing saddle and it's got my undies in a bunch, almost literally)

Both of these are images I sent Petzl years ago, also.... "Please, please, please," I said, the wide strapping is much better support than the thin bikini straps..., really, there is no WEIGHT DIFFERENCE but a perceptable performance difference".

In this image, as part of the modification, I set it up so the straps going onto the bosun seat are adjustable left-to-right, but not adjustable lengthwise. This is because, once you find that sweetspot you will probably not have a need to adjust it much, if ever. I did the left-right adjustment because it was so easy to incorporate and because you don't really know if something can be an advantage unless you flat-out try it.

Here are the home-modded, hand-awled wide back straps. Petzl wants to put thin, bungee-style straps. This allows the seat to move all over and shift. One side can move widely different than the other. They're thinking this will be good. Uh, yea-NO. The seat really needs to stay securely positioned where it logically needs to be. There's no reason I can think of to have the seat anywhere but behind you and under your butt, no matter what position you're in. To have it stretchy and shiftable, I tried it out on the Sequoia Swing saddle, again and again and again, making it shift, trying to find SOME sort of performance advantage. I say formally, and in public," Petzl, please take the advice from TREECARE PROFESSIONALS who spend hours every day in these harnesses, don't incorporate limitations into the saddles you sell us. Step up and give us something great. Make it absolutely outstanding, it's easy to do..... just listen to us.